Episode 9 transcript

Note: this transcript is AI-generated, and as such, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.

Chad (00:01.724)
Greetings and welcome back to the Aural Mess Podcast. I'm joined today by my Internet friend Mackenzie Horne. Hey Mackenzie.

Mackenzie (00:08.173)
Hi Chad, how are you?

Chad (00:10.076)
Great, how's it going?

Mackenzie (00:11.886)
Things are going really well. I'm really excited to be here and thanks so much for having me.

Chad (00:15.886)
Absolutely, and thanks for coming on. I'm really glad you volunteered to join me and talk about all things, music and other. So I guess...

You know, we can jump right into sort of how we connected, which was on my Instagram meme page, which is memes of the Dan, a little plug there. But, you know, we have the shared sense of humor, I think, and love for Steely Dan as well. So tell me, you know, let's get it right out of the way, I guess. How did you get into Steely Dan? How did you discover them? Tell me about that journey and sort of your connection to the band.

Mackenzie (00:49.996)
Yeah, absolutely. So.

I would say for a long time, probably up until my mid -20s, I was actually super convinced that I hated Steely Dan in large part because pretty much the only thing I heard on the radio was reel it in the ears and do it again. Which as I've weirdly enough gotten into the fandom and really appreciated the full catalog of works, I've been able to go back and appreciate those things for what they were. But at the time I was like, oh my God, this is so, this is so kitschy. Like, you know, I just couldn't appreciate it. And it actually took me really getting in.

into the jazz scene. I'm from Pittsburgh originally and we have a really vibrant jazz scene there. And when I moved there for grad school, I fell in with the community and really started to develop this love of jazz. But one of the things that I noticed was that there was this weird sort of reverence for Sealy Dan among these musicians who I considered to be intensely high caliber and also just generally of having good taste. And I was like, you know what, you know, I, at the expense of continuing to feel excluded from conversations,

I'm gonna go and really explore this so I can converse with these people and have something to contribute to this kind of conversation. So originally in a weird way it was to gain a little bit of social acceptance, which is kind of bizarre to think about today. Yeah, exactly. And as I started to discover it with this really sort of attentive ear with the intent of listening and really deriving as much from it as I possibly could, I became immediately obsessed. It took me a long time to get there.

Chad (02:06.142)
street cred.

Mackenzie (02:21.852)
but you know the journey has been really rewarding and I live in New York now and that kind of reverence is definitely still persistent but I have a pretty good foothold in the LA jazz scene too and a lot of my friends there are actually members of the bands led by some of these session musicians so I'm good friends with Lee Rittenhour's bassist and Michael Landau's bassist and Larry Carlton's pianist and so it's kind of interesting how

how this relationship with this really kind of interesting band and kind of niche for people of my age group, it's really just influenced pretty much every aspect of my life and social circle.

Chad (03:02.335)
That's so cool. So you have a professional connection to the music world and specifically jazz, right? You want to tell me a bit about that?

Mackenzie (03:11.273)
Yeah, sure. So I'm a reformed archaeologist. That was my original profession out of out of college. And the thing that was so great about that was we would go on these really long these long digs and we would be driving around for hours and hours and hours at a time. And so, you know, a lot of the people that I worked with were older who also had a love of, you know, Steely Dan, the Michael McDonald camp, all that stuff. So we'd spent endless hours listening to this stuff in the trucks on the way to and from job sites. But I, I

left that world behind because I became so ingrained in the jazz scene in Pittsburgh. And I decided that I wanted to kind of develop skills of my own to come into the publicity sphere in social media management. And so I sort of taught myself those things from scratch and really, really enjoyed it. And I found that it just sort of naturally aligned with more of my interests and talents. And eventually I decided that I also wanted to branch out into classical music, which I also have a great love for. And so...

So after leaving the archaeology job and doing the freelance thing in the jazz space, I moved to New York and I've been doing it in the classical realm for about three years now. Yeah.

Chad (04:19.637)
Oh, wow. That's amazing. And it's funny, too, because, you know, Steely Dan, Walter and Donald, they just have this this intense love for jazz and classical music. Right. I mean, at one point, I think when they were with Jay and the Americans, they were going by the stage names Gus Mahler and Tristan Fabriani. So it's.

Mackenzie (04:36.499)
Absolutely.

Mackenzie (04:40.361)
Yeah, but that's it's interesting because I mean, I principally, you know, base a lot of my musical interests in the new music that I consume. And we talked about this a little bit. I have a huge admiration for musicians who've obviously listened to a ton of music, which I think is probably the soothing balm that got me into Steely Dan after I had all of these people recommended to me after convincing myself that I hated it for so long. Yeah.

Chad (05:08.676)
Yeah, oh no, I can see that. I mean, I think a lot of people, you hear Steely Dan, you see certain things, even other bands, by the way, on the surface, and you're kind of like, eh, but then you give them a second chance or something, you know, you listen to it on the radio or Spotify streams it to you or something happens where you hear something a different way and it just sparks something and you're like, wait a minute, right? Like maybe I should give this music a second chance. I mean, I've done that a lot all my life, you know?

Mackenzie (05:29.03)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (05:33.735)
Yeah, yeah, I would say between developing kind of the listening maturity, but also just the accumulation of life experience, because I mean, even in some of these, I was talking to Phil, mutual friend of ours of the Steely Phil podcast, and we were talking about how certain themes don't necessarily make a lot of sense to you as a young person kind of coming into the world. And then these sort of satirical songs actually take on a lot of relevance because you really start to realize how crazy and insane and silly the human experience can really be.

Chad (05:41.252)
Yes.

Mackenzie (06:03.701)
So I think just the accumulation of life in addition to just an expanded appreciation of what music could be definitely enriched the Steely Dan experience.

Chad (06:14.693)
Yeah, oh absolutely, and I agree with that point because I feel like there are, I've been listening to a lot of the same music all my life and it connects with me in different ways and on different levels at different points in my life, right? So.

you know, a lot of lyrics that I wouldn't have thought were deep or cared about or really, you know, read too much into when I was 20. Now that I'm 52, it's like, wow. You know, like, I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but even Steely Dan, like just, you know, listening to their lyrics through a different lens, you know, with that life experience, it's just, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

Mackenzie (06:38.916)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (06:51.526)
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't have said it better.

Chad (06:54.373)
Well, thank you. So we talked about a fun idea and I guess we can try it and see how it goes. It's either going to be really funny or really bad, but we'll give it a whirl. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, both, both. I like it. So we said we were going to do Smash or Pass on all the Steely Dan albums. So I guess we can go in order, but are we doing all nine? Are we doing solo or are we just doing the band albums? What do you think?

Mackenzie (07:02.757)
Both. Could be both.

Mackenzie (07:17.317)
I think we gotta do the solo albums too. I think we gotta go from Countdown to Ecstasy. I think we gotta go up. Let's go up to the live albums. Let's go to Northeast Corridor and the Nightfly. Let's do it.

Chad (07:25.573)
Wow. Okay, let's do it. All right, so jumping right in.

Mackenzie (07:31.781)
All right, I'm gonna put this on you first, hosts first, I insist.

Chad (07:36.774)
So, um... Can't buy a thrill. I'm gonna have to go pass.

Mackenzie (07:46.213)
Yeah. I think I was talking with somebody about this the other day because I'd mentioned the idea of doing a Steely Dance Master Pass. And I think that.

Oddly enough, the merits for the record, the argument that I have for being pro -pass, ultimately, well, ultimately I'm going to pass, but for being pro -Smash, I personally love Fire in the Hole, which I think is a track that gets completely slept on by most people. I'm a big fan of Kings and Brooklyn, you know? So I would say that my sleeper tracks are solid sleeper tracks, but it's definitely not enough to put it in the Smash territory. That's like the guy.

Chad (08:11.14)
Yes.

Mackenzie (08:28.055)
that you meet in your entry level like history course in college and you know like it just informs the rest of your experiences it's really important but like ultimately you never need to see that person again so I'm gonna I'm gonna pass super hard on Camp Bia Thrill.

Chad (08:38.791)
Right.

Chad (08:43.879)
Okay, I love all the reasons. And Fire in the Hole is absolutely a slept on track. I slept on it myself until I watched or read an interview with Gary Katz and I think it was him and he said that it was his favorite Steely Dan song. And I was like, wow, well, if he's giving it that much weight that maybe I'm missing something. And I went back and listened to it a few times and I was like, yeah, there's something there and now I love it. I'm gonna also in the...

Mackenzie (08:46.853)
Hahaha

Mackenzie (08:58.373)
Yeah.

Chad (09:11.591)
track smash category on that album, I'm gonna have to go dirty work. It's been overhyped. It's, you know, Phil's gonna kill me for saying this, but like, I didn't really care for the soprano's connection, because I couldn't see Tony Soprano liking Steely Dan or even knowing the damn song. So it was like, that didn't make sense to me. And he's gonna be like, yeah.

Mackenzie (09:27.652)
This stays between us and all of our internet friends. It's definitely not going to get back to Phil at this rate.

Chad (09:35.271)
Exactly. Well, you know, he's knee deep in grad school work right now and he's promising me he's going to come on the podcast soon. So we'll see. And he's going to yell at me. But anyway, that aside and one of the things, one of the reasons why I've gone back to loving dirty work after sort of hating on it for so long is because I just started to really dig into some of the live shows. Call me a fake fan if you want. I've never seen Steely Dan perform live.

Mackenzie (09:41.444)
Yeah.

Chad (10:04.273)
I'm not a live music person. I can get into that whole thing, you know, as a separate conversation, but, um,

Mackenzie (10:07.108)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (10:09.713)
I'm really mad that I didn't go see them, especially when Walter was alive. So I guess to sort of assuage my guilt, I've been going back and watching all the concerts on YouTube and what they started doing, I don't know when, but you know, at some point in the live shows, they started to do dirty work, but let the Danettes take turns singing lead. And it's just like the best thing ever. So like, you know, so now I'm in love with the song again, just because of the Danettes, because who's not in love with the Danettes, right?

Mackenzie (10:25.411)
with all the down ads.

Mackenzie (10:34.562)
Seriously, yeah, and and I've come back on can't buy a thrill a lot for a couple of reasons and I think You know to just sidebar back to fire in the hole for a second that song to me is just so Angry, it's so venomous. It's spitting and I am always like I'm just like a total I'm a total snob for that kind of thing like give me give me the cynicism Give me the anger, but I think it's just so Indicative in a weird way of all of the weird tragic

that happened around that album, but also just thinking about the fact that, you know, they were kids when they made this album, essentially. This is a studio debut, and it's pretty cooked, all things considered. It might not necessarily resemble hugely what they would become, but out the gate, I think it's really, really impressive. So, you know, regrettably, I pass on it, but acknowledge that there are merits out there that would make it smashable for the right person, you know?

Chad (11:11.94)
Yeah.

Chad (11:33.039)
Right. It's like you said, it's the guy in your freshman history class. Definitely. I love that analogy. All right. So your turn. Countdown to Ecstasy, smash or pass? Yeah. Same.

Mackenzie (11:39.041)
Yes. I smash it so hard, like no questions asked. Like I would leave my family on Christmas for Countdown to Ecstasy.

Chad (11:50.247)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

Mackenzie (11:52.129)
Um, you know, I think I think it's really great. Like I think it just opens so strongly. I mean, Boston Rag, like Pearl of the Quarter. I just top to bottom. It's an album that I absolutely adore. And Phil and I are actually we're going to be recording an episode for his podcast exclusively in devotion to Countdown to Ecstasy. But I think it's really great. You know, the the Ray Brown cameo on on Razor Boy, which, you know, lights up everything in the jazz fiend's brain that I have. So.

Chad (12:21.735)
Hahaha.

Mackenzie (12:22.035)
I think she's perfect. I don't think she's the perfect Steely Dan album, but I think she's a perfect album for me.

Chad (12:30.695)
I tend to agree with everything you said. One of the first tracks that drew me to Steely Dan when I was younger and again, connection to my sister and also a connection to my friend Amy, who I just texted last night and she's actually going on an 80s cruise next week. So after she's back from that, she's going to come on the podcast and we're going to talk about music. But she went to Bard College and when my sister found out about it when we were in high school and you know, Amy had gotten accepted to Bard, she was like, oh, you know, Steely Dan, the whole connection.

Mackenzie (12:48.257)
Oh, sick!

Chad (13:00.649)
in my old school when I was like, oh, I didn't realize that's what it was about. So that song just became like an evergreen for me. So then exploring the rest of the album. What do you think about Bodhisattva? It's another one that was like a radio hit and I think people hate on it, but I love that song.

Mackenzie (13:15.701)
Yeah.

Well, to be honest, I think...

I think it's a, as it appears on Countdown to Ecstasy, I actually don't think is the most effective version of the performance for me. The Alive in America performance of Bodhisattva just completely blows it out of the water. So I, this is terrible. Usually I'm a pretty, I'm a pretty purist listener whenever it comes to listening to things top to bottom and not interrupting because I, you know, I have these sort of pretentious beliefs about like adhering to the way that the artists and the engineers wanted it to be.

Chad (13:35.015)
It does.

Mackenzie (13:51.346)
to be heard or whatever the hell. But if I'm ever going back to Countdown to Ecstasy and listening to it top to bottom, I'll actually start with the Alive in America Bodhisattva and then just resume listening to Countdown to Ecstasy as it originally appears. So I get why it was a radio hit. It's cool, it's cute or whatever. But I think that hearing other performances of it, you really hear kind of what is possible and how crazy and dynamic and a little bit more appropriate to the theme of the music as far as how frenetic it can get.

So it's a very, very long answer to a not complicated question.

Chad (14:21.627)
Yeah.

Chad (14:28.039)
But you made some great points and the the the speed increase that I mean they played it at breakneck speeds pretty much every time live and and it definitely enhances the experience and you know, you mentioned like sarcastic lyrics and stuff I think that's one of their most biting lyrics if you sort of look under the hood and realize that he was just Lampooning all these people in the 60s and 70s that were into like Transcendental meditation and you know following the gurus in India and all the things and I think it was a swipe at the Beatles

Mackenzie (14:49.759)
Yeah.

Chad (14:57.945)
You know.

Mackenzie (14:58.431)
Yeah, well, and honestly, it's funny because, you know, I went through a phase that every sort of white girl in their 20s goes through where you're like, oh my God, have you read the four agreements? Have you read the body keeps the score? Have you read Roald Dahl? And so, you know, I've been through all of that and not slamming it at all, but it's just like, oh, this is telling on myself a little bit. So I appreciate it from the perspective of it's like, oh, this is this I would have probably fit pretty squarely into this target audience had the had the decades worked out.

Chad (15:30.248)
That's great. And fun fact about Boston Rag is I don't count it as one of my favorite Steely Dan songs, but apparently Spotify thought it was because my rap for 2023, it was my number five song. And like, you know, four others were in front of it. I think it was like Gaucho.

Mackenzie (15:30.783)
You

Mackenzie (15:40.126)
You

Chad (15:46.568)
Green Earrings was my number one because I just literally listened to that song on repeat for like a month. I don't know, it was a vibe. And Boston Rag came in and I was like, Boston Rag, why? And then I went back and yeah, but you know, I mean, it's fine. It's a great song. Like there's no reason that it shouldn't be there, but it was just surprising, you know.

Mackenzie (15:48.062)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (15:56.478)
What are you doing here?

Mackenzie (16:05.659)
Yeah.

Well, it's funny that you say that because I have this friend in Los Angeles who's a bassist named Zephyr Avalon. He's currently Zach Brian's bass player. I think he's done a little bit of work for like, Yabba and stuff like that. But he and I were joking when the Spotify raps came out because I was like, oh, like, are your top five going to just be different versions of Kid Charlemagne? Like, is that what's going to happen here? And it happened to both of us. I think multiples in our top tens were Steely Dan songs that were

live albums and the studio albums and so but unlike your case that was probably accurately reflective I'm so sorry that Spotify has Boston rag slandered you in this way.

Chad (16:49.368)
Like I said, it's fine. Like, you know, at first I was just like, ah, it has to be a glitch or something's wrong. But I went to, last FM does this like a similar kind of wrap up thing. I don't pay for their service. So I don't get the deep stats, but it shows you like more metrics and it was up there. It was, you know, played more than others. So I was like, huh, okay, cool. I guess I'm a Boston rag guy.

Mackenzie (16:58.235)
Mm.

Mackenzie (17:09.692)
Yeah, it's important to learn new things about yourself every day. That's how we keep growing as people.

Chad (17:16.68)
correct. All right, moving on. I guess I'll go next. So Pretzelogic. A smash for sure. And the funny thing is, I think maybe a year ago I would have said a pass. And my smash rating is probably on the strength of four songs. And those songs are Night by Night, Any Major Dude,

Mackenzie (17:21.626)
Hmm.

Mackenzie (17:26.564)
Okay.

Mackenzie (17:44.156)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (17:46.951)
Barytown, which again, people like to hate on that song and I can explain why I like it. And Prensa Logic, the title track is just, you know, that song is just unimpeachable.

Mackenzie (17:57.979)
Mmm. See, it's funny because my four...

solid tracks from the album are the same as yours, but I think I'm gonna have to go pass on this one. I think I have to be a little bit discriminatory in my choosing. Mostly, I think when I first started listening to Steely Dan, this album hit me in a much different way. I had a sort of much more positive relationship with it, I would say. And obviously, there's a ton to like about it from the perspective of somebody who's an avid jazz listener. Obviously, the Horace Silver connection on Ricky Don't Lose That

number. East St. Louis Tootaloo kind of speaks for itself, Parker's band. So in that sense, I really appreciate the obvious influence and the integration of those influences. I think Any Major Dude is probably to me one of the most beautiful, heartfelt...

utterances of platonic relationship between men. At least that's how I read into it. And I just I think it's I think it's a really a beautiful musical description of a relationship. But, you know, just having said that, I I can't I can't get behind it and I connect with it now in a way that is totally different from whenever I first started listening to them. Having said that, I make an allusion to the album cover. I

make a habit of going to Central Park probably once a month in the summer and going to get myself a hot pretzel as close to the entrance to the park as you could possibly get to replicate this album cover. So that's my little tradition that I do for myself in the summer. I go get a pretzel from Central Park.

Chad (19:36.107)
nice.

Chad (19:41.035)
do you find a guy that has Prestil spilled wrong? Fake fan, fake fan.

Mackenzie (19:43.29)
Never. Fake pain. I'm not committed enough. I've done it. I've outed myself. Stop the episode. Nothing that happens after this matters.

Chad (19:57.811)
I totally agree with you. I think that that is the peak of Fagen being a sensitive songwriter, maybe the only, maybe one of the only times until his solo career later on. But you know, not gonna lie, that song makes me cry, man. Like if I listen to it in the right mood and I hear that it's the bridge, the bridge for me is what and.

Mackenzie (20:04.122)
Yes.

Mackenzie (20:12.122)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (20:16.698)
Yes.

Chad (20:17.803)
The common theme for me amongst every Steely Dan song is like some of the bridges are better than the actual main parts of the song and man could they write a middle eight, you know?

Mackenzie (20:28.054)
Mmm.

Absolutely, absolutely. And then Night by Night, to me it has sort of everything that I loved about Can't Buy a Thrill kind of embodied in that song. I'm not sure where that was written in kind of that period, but it feels to me like it could have been a Can't Buy a Thrill era composition that didn't make it onto the album. But I love it, like I think that the guitar work on it is really great and it just has this really great opening lick that's really kind of evocative.

Chad (20:48.179)
Yeah, yeah.

Mackenzie (20:58.602)
and dramatic and so, you know, it's just a great tune.

Chad (21:03.369)
Oh, for sure. All right, well, controversy time. Katie lied.

Mackenzie (21:07.67)
Oh boy.

Oh my God. Oh, you know what? I'm gonna smash. I'm gonna super smash brothers. Oh, thank God. Okay, we're in good company then. Yeah, man. Like I think...

Chad (21:17.451)
Okay, all right, good. That is my answer as well.

Mackenzie (21:26.634)
You know, I'm really intrigued by this duality of Steely Dan and Walter Becker discusses it really beautifully in the Asia classic albums documentary about this weird in -between relationship between New York and LA and yearning for one or the other whenever you're not in the respective city. And I feel like this album just kind of embodies that in a really beautiful way. Bad Sneakers is like my go -to karaoke jam. But I just I think it's I think

it's really beautiful and I think that there's a nostalgia in it and in a way that kind of masquerades as a little bit of anger, a little bit of resentment, which is, you know, very kind of in the wheelhouse. But, you know, that for me is a standout track. Rose Darling, I absolutely love. I mean, Michael McDonald, I mean, just comes in and tears down the neighborhood. Any world that I'm welcome to, I know that that's not a song that necessarily gets a ton of love, but I think it's really

great and my first exposure to that song came in the the Yacht Rock YouTube series. Are you are you hip to the Yacht Rock YouTube series? Oh, you touched you. You know the word. You know the word of our Lord and Savior, Coco Goldstein then. There's a there's an episode whenever I think it might be Steely Dan's first introduction, but Coco introduces them to the whole group of the Yacht Rockers. And this is the song that they are playing. And Michael McGrady,

Chad (22:36.204)
Yes, I am. I've seen it way more times than I care to admit.

Chad (22:44.972)
Yes.

Mackenzie (22:56.312)
Donald's being convinced to join the Doobie Brothers and Donald Fagen's doing his dork scat kind of thing. So that was just such a positive discovery for me that anything that kind of appears in that has just a really kind of happy connotation. So any world that I'm welcome to is always going to have a very special place in my heart because of that. But yeah, I mean, I could go track by track and tell you about why I love this album so much, but I'll refrain to some degree.

Chad (23:23.87)
No, I could do the same. I think for a long time it was my favorite Steely Dan album because of the strength of some of the individual songs and I love Any World and again, that's another song that I find that people don't like even hardcore Dan heads. It's like a skip for them. I don't get it. I think I have a little bit more of a connection to it because...

Mackenzie (23:36.01)
Yeah.

Chad (23:43.402)
There's a book that I really love called Tripmaster Monkey by Maxine Hong Kingston. And the main character talks about this and it takes place in like the late 60s in like, you know, California, like around Berkeley in that area. And the main character who's like a total hippie, but he's like so deep and smart and cool. And, you know, even though he doesn't really think he is, he sort of feels like an outsider and, you know, like has a hard time fitting into things or whatever. But he talks about this desire to have a

job where he would literally just read out loud to people on a train. So he'd get on the train and be the train reader and just travel the country reading books to people. Right. So when any world around the same time that I was getting into that album is when I was getting into that book. And when he says, you know, I quit my job, ride the train to the misty nighttime or whatever the lyric is, it's like, wow, perfect. You know, like sort of set the scene for me with when I read the book. So it's I've got that connection there.

Mackenzie (24:19.414)
Mmm.

Mackenzie (24:39.062)
Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful.

Chad (24:42.988)
and I have a really pedantic connection with Dr. Wu. When my daughter was little, her pediatric practice, one of the doctors was Dr. Wu and every time we would bring her in to see, you know, like if it was like a sick visit and you didn't know which doctor was on duty, whatever, I was like, which doctor's in today? Oh, it's Dr. Wu. I was like, yes, Dr. Wu.

Mackenzie (24:54.686)
Every time.

Mackenzie (25:03.766)
Did you ever tell Dr. Woo about this connection?

Chad (25:06.508)
I did not because my wife probably would have killed me if I did and you know, she would have been embarrassed and you know, I just didn't go there. And I would have felt like, I'd feel like a huge dork too, so I just never went there.

Mackenzie (25:17.078)
What if Dr. Wu was like the biggest Steely Dan head ever? You could have missed out on a lifelong connection, Chad.

Chad (25:21.95)
missed opportunity. I know, I know. Could have been, could have been. All right, so shall we move on? Are we done with Katie?

Mackenzie (25:27.222)
Oh, goodness.

I think, yeah, I mean, perfection kind of speaks for itself, so.

Chad (25:34.284)
Well said, well said. Alright, Royal Scam, my turn to go first. I mean, come on. If you don't smash this album, you should just leave.

Mackenzie (25:45.206)
Just yes, don't talk to me. Yeah, this is my, I would marry The Royal Scam. I would raise a family with The Royal Scam despite the fact that it's probably one of the more maladjusted and perverted Steely Dan albums, but like that's my everything. But walk me through your reasoning, Chad. Be our sherpa on this journey of Scamdom

Chad (25:57.228)
Ha!

Chad (26:05.836)
Let's see, I will be your Bodhisattva. I mean, So this is the first album where we really get Chuck Rainey and Bernard Purdie. 'Nuff said, but I will elaborate. The grooves on this album.

Disco was sort of burgeoning right? This is 75 76 when they're recording and releasing this album The world was really getting more into funk and R &B. I think was was sort of you know nascent at that point so Kid Charlemagne I mean if you ever listen which I do frequently to some of the isolated tracks that you could find on YouTube just the rhythm section on that song is just unreal right same thing with green earrings Same thing with signing stranger. You've got Paul Griffin on

piano and that piano part is just like recorded perfectly and this is where I feel like you know they were...

building up to that studio quality, precision and sort of airtight recording. They were kind of getting there on the first three albums. And I think the first three albums sound great. You know, there was the famous DBX debacle on Katie Lied. You know, the noise reduction system they were using failed and they couldn't sort of, you know, salvage the mix. And basically Donald and Walter, I think, just walked away and said, you know, we're not releasing this thing. It's unfixable. And I think Roger Nichols and I think Denny Diaz actually stepped up and sort of

took over and did the final mix and you know got it to a point where Donald and Walter said okay release it right so I think they went all in on the production on the Royal Scam because of all that I think and it shows you can you can hear it so just album wise that that's why you know I'm so for it.

Mackenzie (27:51.254)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think...

And Phil and I talked about, we talked about the Royal Scam for about three hours a couple of Sundays ago. But for me, I mean, this is absolutely my favorite Steely Dan album, hands down. I think it's, in my mind, probably one of the more important ones, for exactly the reasons you described. But I also feel that it is the only kind of obvious stepping stone between the first couple of albums of their career and Asia.

If you didn't have the scam between Katie Lied and Asia, I don't know that that jump would have happened. This to me is such a significant hinge point and you wouldn't have had Asia, you wouldn't have had Gaucho if not for the Royal Scam in a way that I don't think you can really say about the other albums that came before it. And yeah, in my mind, I don't think that there's a weak track on this record. I can absolutely understand why some people would say that they're

is there are weak tracks, but I think that the storytelling on this is just so fantastic and strong and like really kind of leaning into the literary chops of these guys and sort of, you know, the secret loves of their lives as far as science fiction and obsession with things like Harlan Ellison. On top of just being a really succinct and damning critique of kind of the American dream experience and the immigrant experience, I think the caves of

Chad (29:20.37)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (29:24.28)
All To Myra is my favorite Steely Dan song. It's taken on a lot of meanings for me, I think, when I first heard it. I think the common read that I had of it was like, oh my God, it's this nostalgic thing that's talking about childhood and then leaving that stuff behind in lieu of adulthood. And the older that I get and the more experience that I get in the music industry has me taking a slightly different view of it. And more and more these days, I view it as a critique of the music industry or the film industry or the

commodification of art. And so I just love that it still has new and exciting things for me to discover every time I listen to it. And I mean, Bernard Purdy is in just such perfect form. I mean, Larry's solos on Kid Charlemagne. I mean, it's just really incredible top to bottom. The groove on the Fez is so unbelievable. And you know, so many jazz musicians here in New York and especially bass players are like, oh yeah, no, like the Fez is like the track from the Royal

which initially read to me as very funny, but now I'm like, no, you know what? I get it. I know why you like it now. So yeah, yeah, the scam is everything to me.

Chad (30:29.49)
Yeah.

Chad (30:36.882)
I'm gonna agree with you that it's my favorite album right now. I mean, you know, last year it was Gaucho, before that it was Asia, for a long time it was, it was Katy, but I think if I had to pick like, gun to the head right now, I think Royal Scam is my number one. And yeah, the whole album to me, yes, definitely a critique on the commercialization of the music industry and art in general. But I think it was like the boys were growing up, right? Because like we said, they were so young when the first albums came out. I mean, and the Royal Scam, they were still on their toes.

20s. You know, so to produce such a piece of well written music and lyrics and just social commentary, you know, it's it still boggles the mind that these guys weren't, you a lot older and a lot wiser, you know, they were wise beyond their years. I want to I want to think.

Mackenzie (31:07.638)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (31:25.585)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that part of the really personal experience about something with Steely Dan or any group that has a career that's persisted across decades is that, you know, I'm coming to this music and coming to this album as I'm the same age as them. So I'm effectively the same age that Donald and Walter were when this got released. And so it has this it takes on a brand new life. And I imagine that sort of once I get a little bit of distance from this period of my life, it's going to be like, oh, yeah, no, like that.

that stuff is valid and it happened, but your take on it is going to be very, very different and your relationship with this album is going to be very different as a result. Musically, it holds up really well. So I know that I'm always going to love it from a musicality standpoint, but yeah, yeah, it's just it's just exciting to kind of grow with these albums that that you've come to love so much.

Chad (32:15.538)
Yeah, oh, well said. All right, so let's move on to, I think what we should do is there are the two non -album tracks, right? Let's slot those in chronologically because that's how I have them in my playlist because I am a nerd. So next is here at the Western world, just as a song, Smash or Pass.

Mackenzie (32:28.089)
I'm

Mackenzie (32:33.125)
Oh, I'm gonna pass because it just makes me so sad and I just don't. I just, you know. But I love it and I think it's so lush and so beautiful, but I just I don't want to kick it while it's down. I don't want to put it in a more emotionally compromising place. So, yeah.

Chad (32:36.05)
Oh!

Chad (32:40.434)
Okay, that's fair.

Chad (32:50.29)
you

Chad (32:55.218)
Fair, fair. Yeah, okay. I'm gonna smash because it's, I love, like many Steely Dan songs and why I love them, it's the imagery for me. It's just sort of the words, right? They're so abstract, but you can make a mental picture. Yeah, so that's all I'm gonna say. All right, Asia.

Mackenzie (33:04.625)
Yeah.

Chad (33:18.482)
My turn. Come on, Smash, 1000%. Yeah, I mean, not a bad track on this album. And it's sort of like the benchmark, right? It's the one everybody thinks is their best album, if not one of the best albums ever made.

Mackenzie (33:20.785)
Gotta smash.

Mackenzie (33:25.465)
No.

Mackenzie (33:33.393)
Yeah, I think.

We've talked a little bit about this. I'm a huge audiophile and admin, but for anybody who is not super hip to the culture of vinyl collecting, unsurprisingly, this is just one of the albums that most engineers, most people who construct turntables, construct sound systems, this is the thing that they will use to A -B systems and improvements. I have a custom turntable by an artisan named Vine.

Nirvana who's excellent. He's great and he tested the turntable with a copy of Asia unsurprisingly. So it has just so much merit outside of what it is as a musical record. It just for me indicates so much growth in the industry and advancement of the technology. I feel the way about this album that I actually feel about Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. Like those two things for me as far as what they represent.

Chad (34:13.145)
Nice.

Chad (34:33.081)
Yeah

Mackenzie (34:34.931)
and the repercussions of how recording was done. Both of those things are of equal standing to me. Yeah, I mean, just, you've, Wayne Shorter, like you have, on Asia, just.

Chad (34:47.641)
Yeah. And how they got him, by the way, right? That whole story. They just like wanted him to play, but didn't know him and didn't know how to ask him. And it's sort of like, they just called up, I think his agent or somebody that he knew and said, hey, do you want to play on this album? And he's like, who? Right.

Mackenzie (34:52.561)
Yes, yeah.

Mackenzie (35:05.777)
Yeah.

And he was just like, no, I'm so down to just play music. Like, yes, I'll come in and do it. And then, you know, like it's so funny to me because it's, it's a gorgeous solo, but he came in and basically destroyed the session by playing a scale, um, which is great. And like, totally like, it's just such an outer space Wayne thing to do. And I have so much love for it. Um, you know, Deacon Blues I think is, is also one of my favorite Steely Dan songs. And you know, it has, again, like I, I really gravitate towards these tracks that have a lushness to the,

Chad (35:11.161)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (35:36.851)
and a lot of sus chords and you know so I just just you know I'm easy just give me just give me a couple of sus chords and I'll be a happy little clam but you know it's just it's beautiful and I cried when I wrote this song sue me if I play it too long like right through the heart of me and it's you know oh it's just it's beautiful and

Chad (35:40.057)
I'd love me a suscord.

Chad (35:46.873)
Hahaha.

Chad (35:58.679)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (36:02.105)
Peg is so much fun. It's always gonna be fun. And, you know, the, again, the kind of insane background vocals, Michael McDonald is a fantastic performance here.

Chad (36:13.593)
And hearing him sing chords with himself in the Asia documentary, like my lord, like, and there are such close harmonies too, right? So I don't know how he did it. And you know, the yacht rock thing with him. By larynx. After like 500 takes.

Mackenzie (36:18.193)
Yes.

Mackenzie (36:22.737)
Yes.

Mackenzie (36:29.193)
Hey guys, my larynx is all better. I guess your 12th take was salvageable.

Chad (36:37.337)
he gets hit with the brick I mean come on that's absurd oh yeah those those guys should have like taken that and then made a movie I mean you know I don't know who would have gone to see it I would have gone to see it

Mackenzie (36:39.195)
It's that is cinema, truly.

Mackenzie (36:45.743)
Oh my god.

I would have got to see it. Well, they are working on a book.

Chad (36:52.023)
Oh.

Mackenzie (36:52.401)
Yeah, that was a pandemic project that's underway and they still they host two podcasts Which if you've not checked them out I'd recommend anybody check them out billion dollar record club doesn't necessarily work super well as a concept for me but the yotternyot podcast that they've revived from the earlier podcast is a lot of fun and they just actually they just I think they just yachtski'd all of the Steely Dan albums which made everybody but Dave really really happy because Dave is just so tired of Steely Dan everything after this long

Chad (36:59.161)
Yeah.

Chad (37:10.937)
Yeah.

Chad (37:21.337)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Mackenzie (37:22.355)
long yacht rock journey they've gone on, but so that was a lot of fun. But anyway, Asia. I think for me, really kind of the only, the weak track for me is I got the news.

which is passable for me because it's at the very end of the album. And I think I maybe at a point in my life would have felt less severe about that, but knowing what I know about the bear and that was originally supposed to appear on Asia. And I think that if I were to swap any of the tracks out for the bear, it would have probably been, I got the news. So much like when people listen to Katie Lied and get like kind of pissed off because it's like, well, I know how good it could have been. I kind of feel that way about side two of Asia, but still.

Chad (37:49.879)
Yeah.

Chad (37:56.313)
Mm -hmm.

Mackenzie (38:06.329)
I mean if I got the news is the weakest track on the album like you're doing just fine Yeah

Chad (38:12.249)
I was gonna say you're doing something right. And I think I agree if I had to pick a track to cut and replace, it'd be I got the news and I would absolutely slot the bear in. Even were you blind that day because that was also supposed to be, right? That was an Asia session or was that, that might've been Royal Scam era. I forget which.

Mackenzie (38:22.737)
It's so, so funky.

Mackenzie (38:29.009)
I believe, I believe so.

It would make sense if it were a scam era. It sounds like it definitely could be.

Chad (38:36.601)
I think it was Scam because it had Larry Carlton, I think it was the same, some of the same sessions as that time. Anyway, either way, either one of those songs would have been amazing to sort of be the penultimate track on Sides. And it closes out with Josie, which I have a personal connection to. I've told the story like 10 times already on my podcast, but I'll tell it again, because I don't know if you've heard it. That was the first recollection of Steely Dan that I have. So.

Mackenzie (39:01.199)
Mmm.

Chad (39:02.361)
I had a 45 that my sister had given me because she worked in radio and she used to get all these promo albums and singles and things. And I had this little record player in a suitcase kind of thing in the mid seventies and when I was a kid and I loved that song. Had no idea what the hell it was about. Didn't know anything. Didn't know Steely Dan from, you know, Steely Span. Right. But that song, I've been listening to it since I've been like seven years old. You know.

Mackenzie (39:22.641)
Hehehehehe

Mackenzie (39:29.841)
Yeah.

Yeah, I... It's definitely one of my favorite Steely Dan heroine songs. It's one of the more flattering ones anyway.

Chad (39:32.735)
So it has like a special place.

Chad (39:40.761)
Yes. It is. Yeah. All right. So.

Mackenzie (39:45.905)
Amazing. I feel like we're going to be divided on this one.

Chad (39:51.289)
Well, we have a little detour first. So after Asia came FM.

Mackenzie (39:52.975)
Okay.

Mackenzie (39:58.929)
It's great. It's great. I'm a smash. I'm a smash.

Chad (40:05.241)
Okay.

I am totally a smash. You know there are two versions, right? They have different outros, different solos. I love me some Pete Chrislieb. I think he's a phenomenal sax player and I love what he did on the other Dan stuff that he was on. But this song at the end, I have to say, he goes a little weird at the end of the outro, like that extended outro with the sax solo. He almost plays a little out of key to my ear. So, it's not enough to make me feel

Mackenzie (40:08.559)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (40:12.497)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (40:24.753)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (40:32.431)
Yeah.

Chad (40:36.955)
me pass but it's enough to give me a little bit of a pause of heartily smashing it.

Mackenzie (40:41.329)
Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. The extended outro doesn't really do it for me. I think he overloved the moment a little bit. It's, you know, sometimes less is more. But I think the balance was really, really struck on the edit. But yeah, totally in alignment with you on that.

Chad (40:51.159)
Yeah.

Chad (40:55.597)
Yeah.

Chad (40:59.321)
Cool. All right. Last, well, not last one, but last of the OG albums anyway. And I think, yeah, let's see where we're at on this respectively. Galcho. You want to go first? You want me to go first?

Mackenzie (41:08.561)
I'll go first.

Chad (41:11.737)
Don't say it, don't say it.

Mackenzie (41:13.569)
Oh, Chad, we've just met and I really don't want to do this to you. I love this album very much, but I think I'm going to I think I'm going to have to respectfully pass. I think I'm going to have to pass. Yeah. And I think that I have to pass because, again, kind of just thinking of what this album could have been and for circumstances that are out of many people's control.

Chad (41:24.705)
Wow. Okay.

Mackenzie (41:40.689)
If this album had had The Second Arrangement and Kulee Baba, no question. And it might have actually surpassed my love of The Royal Scam. This could have probably been my number one album if it included those tracks. Now, having said that, there's obviously still an awful lot to love about this album. Babylon Sisters is just such a crazy way to open the album. And as somebody who has spent a lot of time on Sunset Boulevard and in Santa -

Chad (41:50.681)
Okay.

Mackenzie (42:10.643)
Santa Monica and just like that scuzzy feeling of driving late at night when you're sort of a little bit high and it's hot and you've got the windows down and like it's just it's such a such a vibe and kind of so weirdly quintessentially Los Angeles and like the Rhodes the background vocals I mean it's just great absolutely great.

Hey 19, it's a bop. There's a reason they still play it at live shows and there's a reason that people still dance to it and kind of miss the point entirely, but it's still a lot of fun. Glamour Profession, I I just love, I love the sort of weird intersection of precision drumming and drum machines via the Wendell on this album.

You know, so I can't say I can't say enough about how fun the percussive element is to all of this. I'm also really fond of my rival, which I think is maybe maybe not a super common consensus, but big fan time out of mind is great. And.

Yeah, I mean, and actually you'd mentioned Were You Blind That Day whenever we were talking about scam. And I wonder, I almost prefer the lyrics to Were You Blind That Day to the lyrics that appeared on Third World Man, but I would be keen, yeah, you agree? Yeah. Huh, okay. All right, what are your, I'm gonna assume that you're going to enthusiastically smash.

Chad (43:32.089)
Yeah. Me too. Yeah, I totally, totally agree.

Chad (43:43.545)
This is an enthusiastic smash. This is the album, if you'd asked me like a year or two ago, this is the one I would have married, you know, because I just for some reason, and I may have said this in a previous episode as well, but I'll say it again, to quote somebody on Reddit.

Mackenzie (43:49.713)
Yes.

Chad (43:59.524)
There's a whole thread on the Steely Dan subreddit, people talking about favorite albums, favorite songs, giving reasons why and why not, that sort of thing. Almost like a smash or pass sort of scenario. And somebody just said, I really don't get Gaucho. I love every other Steely Dan album, but I just don't get it. And then all these people replied and were saying, oh, me too, for a long time. So one person summed it up nicely and I actually screenshotted this and I quote it all the time. Somebody said, Gaucho,

Mackenzie (44:13.327)
Mmm.

Chad (44:29.478)
reach inside you when the time is right. And that's what happened to me. Didn't like it really when I was younger. Like you know when I was growing up and listening to Asia and then you know work my way backwards through the catalog and you know all the things like it just I like Babylon Sisters. Hey19 was on the radio like I actually have it probably on a cassette when I used to like you know tape songs off the radio when I was a kid. It came out when I was eight.

Mackenzie (44:31.441)
Yes.

Mackenzie (44:50.255)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (44:54.532)
Right, so that song is indeed a bop. I do like it live better and I'll talk about that when we get to the next album. But basically, and it didn't connect with like Gaucho and you know, Time Outta Mind's catchy, but like my rival, Third World Man, Gaucho, Glamour Profession, when I was younger, they just didn't really do it for me, you know? And I think...

Mackenzie (45:01.041)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (45:18.168)
it was that life experience frame of reference sort of thing. Hey 19, me being an older person, understanding what it's like to try to connect with somebody younger than you, not that I'm hitting on young women because I'm not. But you know, disclaimer, but I get it, right? I know guys that do and I know people that are divorced and they're going after these younger women and it's like, dude, not gonna happen, it's not gonna work, whatever. Glamour profession, I think was way over my throats.

Mackenzie (45:32.345)
Disclaimer.

Mackenzie (45:39.409)
Yeah.

Chad (45:48.102)
head as a kid, Gaucho, same thing. I love My Rival. I think you're right, it's a very unpopular opinion in the Daniverse, but it's one of my favorite Steely Dan songs. I think it just has this musical melange, if you will, that some of the other songs just don't have. I mean, it goes from like this crazy intro to like...

Mackenzie (46:09.649)
It's so good.

Chad (46:11.076)
It is and it's like this dark that the music and not that other songs don't but the music just so fits the vibe of the lyrics. It's telling the story about a detective and a guy with a scar across his face and the music is like sinister, right? You've got this vibe or slap and you have the little Timbali fills and stuff and it's just like, whoa, that's never been on a Steely Dan song before. So to me, it was just like out of sort of out of left field. And a couple of years ago, this whole album as a constant,

Mackenzie (46:34.021)
Yeah.

Chad (46:41.03)
just gelled for me and I literally had it on repeat. I think the first, second and third and fourth years that I was actually, you know, paying for Spotify and looking at rap and everything, I think all three of those years, three or four out of my top five songs those years were all tracks from Gaucho. So there you have it.

Mackenzie (46:58.093)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I get it. I get it. I just feel I have to be discerning and so I'm gonna pick the most controversial place that I can be discerning for the sake of conversation.

Chad (47:05.762)
Hahaha

Chad (47:10.084)
Fair enough.

Mackenzie (47:10.789)
Well, it's funny because when you mentioned my rival, it has these sort of, it's upbeat, but it is dark and sinister. And it's funny because it just, for me, is the perfect lead -in to the Nightfly and something like the goodbye look, which is very upbeat and kind of silly, but it just has this horrific story behind it. And I'm always gonna be a big fan of music that merges kind of the happiness of melody and the darkness of lyrics.

which I think is why I love things like Brazilian pop so much, like that sort of 1970s, 80s thing where it's just like, wow, this sound is so upbeat and so positive. And meanwhile, like, Javan is talking about like losing his wife and child and childbirth or something like that. And like this weird disparity between lyrical content and melody that ultimately works really well.

Chad (47:44.196)
Yeah.

Chad (48:02.436)
Yeah, sure.

And so much music is like that, you know, it's happy on the surface. I was talking about this. I had another guest a few weeks ago named Jane Sheldon and she's a musician and she put out an AP of covers. She covered Bad Sneakers. She covered I Want You to Want Me by Cheap Trick. And we were talking about sort of like the dichotomy of that song because Cheap Trick, that song is like just this great power pop sort of tune. And it has this like major key feel to it and it's a happy song. But if you dig into the lyrics, it's really about somebody who's like, you know,

longing for someone they can't have. Right? And until she sort of took it and slowed it down and spun it into that musically, like it didn't really, it never clicked for me that it was a sort of a sad song, right? Because everybody dances to that song and it's, you know, it's on the radio and all the things. So yeah, so I think that's an interesting observation.

Mackenzie (48:36.641)
Mm -hmm.

Mackenzie (48:46.819)
Yeah.

Chad (48:55.592)
All right, we have two more to go. We're getting a little bit, I don't wanna say short on time, because I don't wanna stop if we're vibing on this whole Steely Dan, Smasher Pass thing. So I think we should finish that. All right, cool, great. So, two against nature. It's my turn to go first. Hard Pass, Hard Pass, yeah. And.

Mackenzie (49:04.994)
Let's do it.

Mackenzie (49:14.242)
Do it. Hard pass?

Chad (49:20.068)
Let me qualify, allow me to elaborate.

Mackenzie (49:21.314)
Oh dear, okay.

Chad (49:28.714)
Somebody who's been listening to Steely Dan arguably regularly since 1978 or nine when I first got into them, right? Or maybe a little bit later, maybe 1980 really. Love them, they grew on me. I worked my way backward through the catalog and...

going all through the 80s and 90s and listening to other music and it was just the same seven albums which were all great but just didn't have anything new and then when they finally announced that they were putting out a new album I was pretty excited. Again, I wasn't a mega fan at that point so when it came out I picked up the CD and I put it on and I think like a lot of people I was kind of like, huh? It wasn't like anything they had done before and not that that's a bad thing.

Mackenzie (49:53.89)
Mm.

Mackenzie (50:08.275)
I'm

Chad (50:15.174)
bad thing, but it's some people hate Gaucho because it went beyond airtight, right? Like the production is a little bit stiff. You have all this amazing musicianship, but you know, because of all the pressures and all the sort of, I don't want to say neuroses, but let's just say that word anyway, that, you know, Fagen was going through and Becker's issues during that time.

Mackenzie (50:22.817)
Mm.

Mackenzie (50:40.863)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (50:42.98)
I think the album got really sterile, right, Gaucho? Because Wendell and quantizing the drum beats and to some people, right, it feels like it just doesn't fit the rest of this, this great, like Asia had this breathing room for days, right? Royal Scam has grew.

Mackenzie (50:46.303)
Mmm.

Mackenzie (50:59.009)
Yeah.

Chad (51:01.22)
and guitars and it's got like this whole sort of sonic landscape where Gaucho feels really tight and I'll say it again, sterile. So I felt like they took that and amped it up two notches for two against nature. It's super sterile, the recording is great and it sounds fantastic but it just to me, it's lifeless, you know? And it's a shame because to me that impacts my enjoyment of the actual songs, right? The music, the lyrics,

Mackenzie (51:16.351)
Mmm.

Mackenzie (51:24.545)
Mmm.

Chad (51:31.174)
great no no argument there but when I was saying about you know Hay19 live what I found is as I started working my way backwards through some of these live shows I'm starting to really like a lot of Two Against Nature because live it stretches out it breathes and the songs speak for themselves at that point for me so I'm slowly getting there but I still have to say pass at this point.

Mackenzie (51:48.96)
Yes.

Mackenzie (51:53.31)
Mm -hmm.

Mackenzie (51:56.896)
Yeah, yeah, I understand. And you know, I think you raise an important point. I kind of am coming from a place of privilege insofar as I did not have this giant anticipatory period between when Gaucho came out and when Two Against Nature came out. So my exposure to all of these things was just like I had access to all of that material at exactly the same time. I think to me, sort of the shortcomings of this album...

Chad (52:07.716)
Right.

Mackenzie (52:21.113)
I think that there are certain aspects of it that date it pretty significantly. And I think a lot of that comes through on the drum fills and the percussive elements. It sounds very sort of late 90s, early 2000s, which makes perfect sense. But I think it dates it in a way that the other Seelie Dan albums aren't dated. Katie Lied, Not Withstanding, but that was, you know...

so many debacles with the actual recording and mastering of it that we can kind of just exclude it from the equation. But I think what's interesting about this album is...

you kind of see a band that didn't have parameters. I think everybody was just so stoked to make money off of this album when it came out that it was just like, oh my God, just let them do whatever they want. And so in certain ways, maybe not the most anticipated ways, I think that they've kind of exploited that space to their advantage. And I think most of it comes probably through the lyrical content and the storytelling as opposed to the actual musicality. And I do agree that it does translate much better to live performance actually than being confined to

to the album itself. But you know, standout tracks for me, almost gothic, again, like it kind of falls into that sort of Deacon Blues vein where it's just like, oh, it's just like sitting in warm water and being like washed over with it and you know, kind of this obsession with this little emo girl that you'll never have and you know, I feel like thematically, like what happens on Gaucho kind of extends through the rest of Donald Fagen's career as far as just lusting after these girls that you're never gonna get. That takes on a very different feel from

Chad (53:50.532)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (53:55.791)
lusting after girls you couldn't get before you turned 40. But almost gothic. No comment. Look at me projecting. This is... I am... I am being very...

Chad (53:58.628)
No comment, no comment.

Chad (54:07.812)
Hey, look, I am happily married, but I, you know, I can, as a man, I feel how Fagen, you know, can be where he's at. Let's just say that.

Mackenzie (54:17.373)
Yeah, yeah, and you know, I'm sure it represents a lot of stuff outside of just what the service level thing is in that particular case, but uh,

Chad (54:23.716)
Of course.

Mackenzie (54:25.391)
you know, like Jack of Speed, I think is great. And actually, you know, the performances that I've heard, sort of the early performances when Walter singing it, I think is really interesting and it works in a completely different way. And it's not to say that that's my preferred way, but it's just like, oh, this takes on just like a completely different thing whenever you've got somebody who's so blues influences Walter singing this stuff. Cousin Dupree is just like, it's just hilarious to me, you know, and I've enjoyed, I think it was Tom Scott's podcast where they were talking about

Chad (54:35.14)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (54:55.246)
this and Donald was talking about his beautiful older cousin who got him super into jazz and Tom was just like oh his cousin Dupree about her just came out of the gate and asked it which was great.

Chad (55:01.54)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Tom Scott by the way. I was really into his podcast for a long time.

Mackenzie (55:08.988)
Yeah, yeah. And that was such an interesting interview because, you know, like the like the third story podcast that Donald did was also really great, Leo Sedran. But I think because he and Tom have such good chemistry and have known each other that he just got an awful lot out of him that he doesn't usually emote. So that was a very fun podcast for sure. But yeah, and Gaslighting Abby, I think it's just I think it's just I think it's a nice little groove. So.

Chad (55:19.138)
Yeah.

Chad (55:38.18)
I think that's my favorite song, if I had to pick one on that album for sure.

Mackenzie (55:41.916)
Yeah, yeah. And with these two albums, I see sort of a lot of the modern jazz musicians who I love so much, people like Bill Charlapp start coming into the fold, and Michael Lenhart and Chris Potter. So it's not a perfect album, but it's one that I am quite endeared to and would go to bat for. Yeah.

Chad (56:02.148)
Nice. All right, well, we have one left and maybe we stop there and then we have you back on again and do solo albums and live albums. It's like a separate thing. And on release tracks, we can totally go through the Lost Gaucho and all the other ones. All right, good. So that's where we'll cut it off. So last but certainly not least, Two Against Nature. I mean, yeah, sorry, not Two Against Nature. Everything must go.

Mackenzie (56:13.336)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (56:27.611)
Everything must go. I'm gonna smash. I'm gonna smash it. Yeah.

Chad (56:32.452)
Yeah. Um, me too. So tell me why.

Mackenzie (56:37.179)
Um, oh man, I think, uh...

Honestly, I think by virtue of the title track alone, there's a lot that I like about this album, but that title track is so epic to me and just like the saxophone work and you know, I feel that it's kind of, and I'll get into this when we talk solo albums because I feel this way about Morph the Cat too. This is sort of like the quintessential post 9 -11 album. And there's just so much of that anger and cynicism that I relate to as somebody who was growing up during this period. So things like that, the breakdown of,

Chad (56:49.486)
Yeah.

Chad (57:01.708)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (57:10.956)
of like these kind of American ideals with the last mall. I think it's really great. Godwhacker as a concept to me is just like so funny and quirky and imaginative. Green Book for some reason is something that I've really latched onto lately and I can't even really tell you why. I think that I just like how dangerous and sort of eerie some of that synth work is. So I think from an auditory standpoint, I think it's just really intriguing to me.

But yeah, like I just, I like a lot of it. Pixeline is a track I like very much, but I think it's really imperfect. I think that some of the background vocals on it are a little too much, but yeah, I mean, there's a lot that I really like about this album. And, you know, I feel like out of respect to Walter, I have to smash in honor of him because it's what he would have wanted. So.

Chad (58:03.598)
Yes, agreed and I'm smashing on this one too. Yeah, a lot of the same reasons. I really love the cynicism where I feel like Two Against Nature was a little more all over the place with some of the themes.

Mackenzie (58:19.066)
Yeah.

Chad (58:22.126)
And you know, I guess it was just however many years of pent up stuff they had to get out and get down on record. But I think that once they did that, it sort of paved the way for this record. And it's definitely to me way more polished and it has a better feel just overall. I love God Wacker. I love Lunch with Gina. Lunch with Gina is forever. I think we all have a Gina in our lives.

Mackenzie (58:39.937)
Mm -hmm.

Mackenzie (58:47.233)
All of us. Every single one of us.

Chad (58:51.694)
But then of course, you know, Fagin being Fagin turns that into, you know, having the annoying friend turning into like, oh, well, she's actually, you know, kind of attractive. Right? Sort of like the vibe that you get.

Mackenzie (58:59.205)
Wow, she's a person and she sent you. Wow.

Chad (59:06.733)
Yeah, and everything must go. It's it's it is the perfect song. It's just depressing to me because, you know, and we didn't know what at the time, obviously, but it was the last song of the last album of, you know, their their collective careers. Right. So that was the end of Steely Dan. So when you hear it now, it's kind of like, oh, it's a bittersweet, at least for me. So.

Mackenzie (59:22.425)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (59:28.663)
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And just the, it's so evocative and having sort of the additional knowledge just really makes it quite impactful. And just there's something beautiful about juxtaposing that with like filming a gangbang in the elevator talking about the decline of American exceptionalism that it's just like, you know what? This is the perfect encapsulation of everything in my mind.

Chad (59:53.55)
Yeah, definitely. Have you seen the video they did that went along with the release? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. It is. I need to make more memes out of that. Like I just need to go screen cap some stuff and come up with some things. Yeah, I do. I did a few.

Mackenzie (59:56.951)
The taxi cab confessions. It's cinema, pure cinema.

Mackenzie (01:00:10.263)
Please. I'll never get tired of a chocolate banana shake reference. Never.

Chad (01:00:18.959)
there. And reeling in the sheaves, you know, I just I can't. Yeah. So they're so quick. That's what I love about them. And and Walter's face like if anybody ever needed to fix their face, you know,

Mackenzie (01:00:22.775)
was a big one for us.

Mackenzie (01:00:28.279)
They are.

Mackenzie (01:00:32.343)
You

And but they were so nice to her. They were so, I mean, so gentle about it, comparatively speaking, but probably because she was part and blonde. Like, you know, we know we know our dads. We know our Internet dads.

Chad (01:00:45.808)
Right, exactly. Yes, we do know our dads.

All right, I wanted to ask you one more question, two more questions. And maybe these will be sort of like, you know, parting shots. And then we definitely need to have you back on because we need to continue this and do the solo albums, like we said, and the live albums and some of the unreleased tracks. But we also need to have that conversation. And I'll tease it here. You and I had this exchange on Instagram, basically ranking Yacht Rock musicians in terms of like their their butchness. Right. In terms of like, who's who's a sensitive singer songwriter, but would probably kick your ass.

Mackenzie (01:00:57.751)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (01:01:15.958)
Hahahaha

Mackenzie (01:01:20.628)
Yes.

Chad (01:01:22.05)
in a bar fight, right? So I think we need to revisit that as our next concept, but we'll come back to that next episode for science. Yes, thank you. But the two things I wanted to ask you was, where the hell did you come up with you swing like a brick in a dryer? I love that phrase.

Mackenzie (01:01:25.334)
Yes. For science, yes.

Mackenzie (01:01:36.179)
Oh my god. So, uh...

So swinging like a brick in a dryer is, in case it needs to melt out, is a phrase I use to describe people who can't swing and can't find pocket. This was actually a phrase that I picked up back in Pittsburgh. A couple of folks in the scene who were actually sort of of, there's a Steely Dan connection, it's tenuous, but kind of one of the great jazz elders in Pittsburgh is this drummer named Roger Humphreys who was Horace Silver's drummer on Song for My Father, which is, has the obviously the,

Chad (01:02:06.865)
Oh wow.

Mackenzie (01:02:09.363)
pretzel logic connection to any major or not any major dude to Ricky don't lose that number and so the phrase came of origin from people in that particular subsect of the jazz space and I'm not sure that it came from Mr. Humphreys I don't think it did because he's much more he's much more contained and respect respectful than that but but

Granted a couple of young jazz musicians who'd come up underneath of him had really kind of popularized that phrase in my presence So I can't take credit for it. I wish I could it's it's far too witty for me, but it's it's a phrase I use quite often Please thank you

Chad (01:02:45.074)
I am appropriating that and I will give you full credit but I'm gonna start using it. It reminds me of and when I read it now and I still laugh every time I read it because in my head I hear the voice of, and maybe this is a little before your time, but there was in the 90s a Saturday Night Live skit called Sinatra Group. Are you familiar at all?

Mackenzie (01:03:04.991)
Oh yes.

Chad (01:03:06.514)
Okay, so you know how Frank Sinatra is about to fight Billy Idol and he goes, I've got chunks of guys like you in my stool. That's the voice that I hear. You swing like a brick in a dryer. Like I just hear like Frank Sinatra, you just have to insult somebody.

Mackenzie (01:03:13.237)
Hahahaha

Mackenzie (01:03:19.957)
You read that exactly within the tonal context, Chad. You nailed that.

Chad (01:03:30.323)
to link the SNL skit in the show notes, I will absolutely include that. We are, we are gonna educate the children. Cool, all right, and parting question. Given your musical taste, given the things that you listen to all the time, what's the most unlikely song you're obsessed with? Like if I didn't know you and if I knew you very well and knew all your musical tastes and you said, hey, I really love this song, what would shock me?

Mackenzie (01:03:32.756)
See, we're gonna learn some people up. We're gonna teach them the culture.

Mackenzie (01:03:57.428)
Oh boy. Oh, that's a great question.

Mackenzie (01:04:03.956)
I think it's not necessarily so much a song, but I think people would be...

I think people would be really surprised to know that I like something like, like Mac DeMarco. I'm a big Mac DeMarco fan. And I think that, I think based on what people know about me, I think that I come off as having like sort of very high brow taste and like has like a very specific set of criteria of things that I like to listen to. Most of which Mac DeMarco does not fit into. But there's just a vibe about it for me. Again, it's kind of quintessentially Californian in a lot of ways. He's Canadian, but.

you know, he embodies that vibe particularly well. And I think that I'm kind of fascinated by kind of DIY musicians. And I think that what he's doing within kind of the DIY adjacent space is really unique, but also achievable if you're creative enough to do it. So I would say that probably most people would be really surprised that I'm into Mac DeMarco in the way that I am.

Chad (01:04:58.645)
Hmm.

Chad (01:05:03.797)
Okay, well, I'll have to check him out. I did notice a few of his tracks on the playlist that you sent me, which I'm also gonna link. So yeah, for sure. So you wanna hear mine? And then... I'm almost embarrassed, but I'm really not because I don't really care what anybody thinks, but Ready or Not by Bridget Mendler.

Mackenzie (01:05:12.757)
Yeah, absolutely.

Mackenzie (01:05:23.669)
Oh hell yeah.

Chad (01:05:24.373)
has been, that song has been, it's not as much of a deep explanation as you just gave for Mac DeMarco. Mine is simply because it's a bop. It's just such a well -written song. The production is amazing. It calls back to the Fugees. Like it's just got all the elements of like a great pop song. And it's funny because my daughter had turned me onto it, you know, when it was out years ago and she was playing it a lot. And I was like, who is that? And she was like, it's Bridget Menlo. And I'm like, wait a minute, the girl from Disney? Like, because we used to watch all the shows.

Mackenzie (01:05:33.013)
Bop.

Mackenzie (01:05:41.705)
Yeah.

Chad (01:05:54.278)
shows, you know, when she was a kid and stuff and she's like, yeah, her and I'm like, wow.

Mackenzie (01:05:54.546)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (01:05:58.132)
Well, and she was recently in the news because she is now the CEO of like, I don't, I'm gonna butcher this, but she's basically like an aeronautic CEO. And yeah, so she's, that's great.

Chad (01:06:01.341)
Yeah.

Chad (01:06:06.389)
Yeah, she and her husband who's also an engineer, I think is they're starting up like some satellite space communications company and she has like dual PhDs from like MIT and Harvard. Like she's just like this amazingly brilliant woman. So I mean, it's just so funny like where she came from, you know, like how she kind of got where she is, but love it.

Mackenzie (01:06:24.405)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate you asking this question because I think that it's really important for people to just be allowed to enjoy what they want to without justification and without shame. So thank you so much for asking this question.

Chad (01:06:35.956)
Yes.

Chad (01:06:40.209)
Absolutely. All right. Well, Mackenzie, this has been lovely. Anything else you wanted to say or plug or talk about before we wrap?

Mackenzie (01:06:44.816)
Absolutely.

Mackenzie (01:06:51.252)
I don't think so, man. I'm looking forward to, uh, I'm looking forward to Aural Mess 2 Electric Boogaloo for sure.

Chad (01:06:57.141)
I'm gonna title the episode just that now, now that you said it. Fantastic. All right, well thanks again. Enjoy the rest of your day and we'll talk about scheduling part two. All right. Thanks.

Mackenzie (01:07:00.004)
Yes! Yes!

Mackenzie (01:07:10.292)
Great, thank you so much and happy listening.