Episode 27 transcript

Note: this transcript is AI-generated, and as such, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.

Chad (00:03.064)
Greetings and welcome back to the Aural Mess podcast. My guest this week is author Jim Berkenstadt, who's also known as the Rock and Roll Detective. Hi, Jim.

Jim Berkenstadt (00:12.22)
Hi, Chad. Thanks for having me on your show.

Chad (00:15.065)
Thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Why don't you tell the audience just a slight bit about yourself. I'd love to hear something about your background. I know that you have a pretty interesting career that didn't start out as a rock and roll detective.

Jim Berkenstadt (00:31.026)
Right, well I actually started out as a trial attorney a long time ago and then I moved from there to being a corporate attorney for one company but I always had my hand in writing and researching about rock history, rock and roll history but specifically I would say I majored in the Beatles. so...

I have written several books, some on The Beatles, some on other rock and rollers. One book is Mysteries in the Music, where I solve long time mysteries and myths in rock and roll, such as, did the Beach Boys steal a song from Charles Manson? Another one is, did the CIA have anything to do with Bob Marley being shot? So different things. Did Bob Dylan?

actually try to start a supergroup with the Rolling Stones and the Beatles. So a lot of these things have been sort of flowing through the internet over the years or by word of mouth and I thought I would use my legal background to solve those. I wrote a book about the inside story of Nirvana producing the album Nevermind which I believe is like the greatest rock album of the 90s decade.

And it really made a lot of, changed music and it was just very interesting, both culturally and as a piece of music. I have worked for George Harrison back in 1998 and then continued to work for his estate. For example, I was the historical consultant to Martin Scorsese on the HBO film, George Harrison, Living in the Material

And I've worked on a number of box sets for the Harrison family as well as for the Beatles Apple Corps. I've worked on the Get Back movie for the Beatles. I worked on the Cirque du Soleil show audio, the eight days a week documentary about their live recordings. And I've also done consulting to other Los Angeles directors who produce rock and roll documentaries. It's fun.

Chad (02:48.965)
Well, yeah, it sounds like fun. how did you, I know you said that you were always sort of adjacent to music and interested, but how did you start writing? Like what made you decide one day in your corporate attorney position to just be like, Hey, I'm going to go publish some articles and do some research and write some books. Like, how'd you get there?

Jim Berkenstadt (03:04.019)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good question. Well, you know, I think that I always wanted to do something creative in my life. And so just because I had to be a lawyer, I felt I shouldn't have to sacrifice my life of wanting to create things and wanting to learn more about certain areas. One of the first areas I really learned a lot about was the underground bootleg industry.

that really got going with rock and roll in around 1969. And specifically, I found these early bootlegs of the Beatles that really were just like a white cover with a hand stamp on them that might have a few words. That was the whole artwork on the cover. But I was fascinated because I was starting to hear... Excuse me. I was starting to hear demos.

demo recordings alternate takes live concert recordings and, so, yeah, so that just led me to want to write. So the first book I wrote was Black Market Beatles, the story behind their lost recordings. That came to the attention of Apple. I was told during the time they worked on their Beatles anthology movie and box sets of lost recordings.

Jim Berkenstadt (04:53.982)
So, and then from there, just was interested in just writing books. So I would do it late at night after the kids would go to bed, but I just kept doing it. And now that I'm retired as an attorney, it's great to be able to just spend all day going down the rabbit hole, researching rock music mysteries.

Chad (05:17.051)
I aspire to retiring and being able to just spend my whole day.

on music stuff. Similar to you, I really needed a creative outlet. You know, I haven't really been playing the guitars that we talked about behind me as much as I'd like to and not in a band anymore, although I'm hoping to maybe do that again soon. But I really just got interested in this podcasting thing because you know, same same as you, I'm doing a nine to five corporate gig and it's great. But you know, there's this creative outlet that I needed to sort of scratch right this itch. So here we are.

Jim Berkenstadt (05:47.826)
Yeah, there we go. We have that in common.

Chad (05:51.973)
Absolutely. So I'd love to talk about all the different things that you outline sort of in your background. How did you get hooked up with George Harrison? Like how did that come about?

Jim Berkenstadt (06:03.156)
Well, as I recall, I had heard that he wanted to remaster the sound on All Things Must Pass and then put it all out again as a box set of CDs. So I sat there and I thought, well, I lived through that album when it came out and it's come out on reel to reel cassette eight track LP.

CD and I thought, you know, if you're asking Baby Boomers to buy the same music over again, at least give them some unreleased music. You know, give them a little bonus, a little thank you and they'll buy your whole album or three records set all over again. So when I thought of that, I thought, well, I have to, obviously I have to find George Harrison and let him know my great idea. So

asked a friend who interviewed the Beatles a lot for different articles and just knew a lot of people out in LA. And he gave me the phone number of George's personal assistant. So I called her up and I think she had been his assistant for about 23, 24 years at that point. And I told her, you know, I did this book called Black Market Beatles, but I

I know a lot about George's unreleased recordings. And I gave her the pitch about, know, we've all had to, boy, Baby Boomers have bought it on every format, so you need to give us something else. And I would like to help George do that. And I can provide him with some really cool demos that he did for Phil Spector before the album was made and a lot of alternate versions that were recorded in the studio. I have no idea where or how they leaked

but they did and I had really excellent quality versions of these things and not that they were necessarily going to end up using my actual recordings but it would give George an idea of all this other great music that could supplement and is related to All Things Was Past. So that's how it got started and from there on it just kept rolling. I worked on traveling Wilburys box set, worked

Jim Berkenstadt (08:26.004)
George Harrison's main solo album box set catalog. And at George's last visit to Apple to meet with Paul Ringo and Yoko, he apparently suggested that they contact me and then Neil Aspinall, a couple of months after George sadly passed away, Neil Aspinall contacted me and said, George recommended you to everyone on the board meeting and.

you know, we'd like to use you for our beetle projects.

Chad (09:01.043)
That's really cool.

Jim Berkenstadt (09:02.324)
very exciting and it's funny because at age 10 I told my parents, hey I want to work for the Beatles someday and my parents were like that's really nice Jimmie but you're gonna be a lawyer or a doctor. So I got them back. Yeah I know that's that's you know

Chad (09:17.085)
Well, that's right. Yeah. Revenge is sweet. And you got to do both by the way. that's, that's, yeah. That's amazing. was George aware of all these unreleased tracks? Like, did he remember these? Did he say, yeah, I know of all these things. And you know, it's, it's just fascinating to me too, how so many artists have things buried, you know, lost tapes or alternate takes or, know, whatever it might be. And somehow they leak, right? The public gets ahold of them.

especially with the proliferation of music on the internet last 20 years or so. But, you know, did he remember and I guess, you know, how do other artists sort of feel about that kind of stuff? Because clearly I didn't make the album for a reason, right? Or at least some artists feel that way.

Jim Berkenstadt (10:04.67)
Well, that's a great question. That's fascinating. I would say, yes, he remembered the Phil Spector demos where he plays many of the songs he plays acoustically. Then he picks up just an electric guitar and just plays some of the songs with an electric guitar. And it gives you some idea of what the Finnish song is going to sound like because we've all heard the Finnish songs.

I'm not sure he had heard all these different alternate takes and I think there were even a couple of outtakes which mean songs that didn't make the album at all. An alternate take for people who might not be sure that that's just a earlier version as you're you're starting to build the song in the studio and maybe you haven't come up with all the ideas or maybe you're going to say let's lose that accordion and put in a piano or something. So I think that

you know, maybe that just gave him the idea of, I should go back to all these tapes in the vault. And if you think about it, if you left songs behind over the years and think about all the music he had made even up to that point, you're not going to necessarily remember the ones that you didn't think were quite good enough. Maybe sometimes you come back to them and you go, hey, you know what? That's not a bad song. So.

But mainly I think he was looking at earlier versions or mixes of the songs. And I think he did like the demos. And I think some of the demos came out on an all demo album that Olivia Harrison put out around the same time as the movie, George Harrison Living in the Material World. And they were from all different parts of his career.

So I love those things. They really, you just hear that pure sound of the first idea the musician has of a song that, you know, later blew up and was a huge hit or something. I love them too. think my first and worst holy grail.

Chad (12:10.963)
love them too and I think my personal holy grail of alternate takes is supposedly Jimmie Page recorded three different solos for Stairway to Heaven on Led Zeppelin 4 and the other two

Jim Berkenstadt (12:22.728)
Wow.

Chad (12:26.767)
again, legend has it that they're on a tape somewhere in his archives. Will he ever release them? I hope so, because I would love to hear the solos that weren't because you know, that's probably one of the most recognizable and dare I say, well regarded guitar solos ever in rock music, right? So that fascinates me. Yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (12:32.553)
Wow.

Jim Berkenstadt (12:41.971)
yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (12:46.042)
Absolutely, wow. I think I see that on your shelf back there. Would you just send me a copy after we're done?

Chad (12:51.771)
I wish. I wish.

Jim Berkenstadt (12:55.604)
That's pretty cool. Well, there's two Beatles songs that I wish would come out someday. One is called Carnival of Light, and it was just an instrumental, psychedelic, crazy song that Paul worked on with the other Beatles because Paul was asked to contribute a song to one of these raves that were, or whatever they called them back then, but they were kind of these psychedelic dance, you know, club things

That's one song that hasn't come out. The other one would be, there's like about a 20 minute version of Helter Skelter. Yeah, and I would really like to hear the whole thing. Even if there's breakdowns, even if they're laughing, whatever, I just would like to hear the whole 20 minutes of that song, because that's pretty raucous, hard rocking tune.

Chad (13:47.679)
Yeah, probably one of the heaviest songs they ever did, I would say. Yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (13:50.876)
I would say, yeah, maybe the

Chad (13:53.655)
Yeah, I think so. I love that song. I did not know there was a 20 minute version somewhere. That'd be great. So speaking of, you know, things that sort of came out and getting a glimpse behind the curtain, you worked on the Disney Plus documentary, Get Back, and I believe your website said that you had unearthed some B -roll audio. I watched that and was just blown away by, you know, I'm seeing the Beatles in 4K.

All right. It was just unreal. you know, was it the most riveting scene? You know, were they the most riveting scenes I've ever seen in a documentary or TV shoot? No, there was there's a lot of just sort of studio chatter and, you know, a lot of the process. But I mean, just the whole thing in general was just amazing. You know, I couldn't believe what I was watching.

Jim Berkenstadt (14:23.826)
I'm so low.

Jim Berkenstadt (14:45.012)
Yeah, it's really, I mean, the opportunity to see the Beatles at work in the studio and be sort of a little person in the background, that's what that does to you. It takes you inside the studio with them. And even if you only wanna watch 30 minutes of it, it gives you a great idea of what it was like to be in the room with them and to see them creating a

which of course was something that got me all started on bootlegs in general. I wanted to hear the creative evolution of the music and that all went back to when I was in college at Northwestern, I took an art philosophy class or something and I remember we saw all these sketches that led up to Picasso's painting of Battle of Guernica and it was just fascinating to me.

to see that finished product and then we got to go back and see slides I think of all the little things that he was working on that would ultimately go into the painting. And that immediately for me transferred to my love of music and I thought I wonder if there's that sort of thing out there for music and apparently the bootleggers found it and put out quite a bit of it on both LP and CD.

Chad (16:11.637)
and I'm really glad that they did. And seeing how they put songs together in the studio and any band, by the way, like you said, just sort of getting a glimpse. But with the Get Back documentary, the visual of seeing it happen and just watching Paul sitting at a piano and they're just bouncing ideas off each other. What about this chord? Whoa, let me change this note here. I like that. know, like it's just amazing how I think a lot of people think that musicians will sit and write and, you know,

Jim Berkenstadt (16:26.161)
Yeah

Chad (16:41.396)
go crazy with the details of each note and each beat and how things are put together. But a lot of times it's quite the opposite where they just sort of throw something out or they get just this perfect take on tape as they're sort of jamming. And then they just build on that and layer it into a final product. It's amazing.

Jim Berkenstadt (16:58.612)
It's amazing. That was a really interesting project. My part of it really predated Peter Jackson by 20 years, 15 years or something. They were originally thinking of redoing, let it be, cleaning it up and putting it out and then maybe expanding it. And that was, think, the early ideas. I think around 2001,

Neil informed me that all the B -roll or 98 % of it was missing. And I later learned that a former Apple employee had walked out the door with these things, as well as other items like signed documents, which could be, you know, sold as autographs and gold, gold or it wasn't platinum back then, but gold record awards from

60s and 70s. He apparently walked out with a lot of things and Neil said, you know, your assignment is I need you to try to track down the B -roll. And although I didn't track down the actual reel to reel tapes that, well, and maybe we should stop and explain by B -roll, I mean that there were really two cameras most of the time during the

and the cameras were recording only the visual. And then there were two NAGRA, which is a brand name for reel -to -reel tape recorders. There was one that had the A -roll, which meant the main A camera, and one that had B -roll, which is sort of a secondary camera so that the editor can cut back and forth. Maybe Paul is singing a song, so that would be on the A -roll.

sound and vision, but on the B -roll we might see Ringo playing a drum fill or something else. And the other thing they did was they sequenced these two reel -to -reel tape recorders so that if the A -reel ran out, the B -roll was started later and staggered so the B -roll would cover it cover it so that we would never miss a single note of what they were doing.

Jim Berkenstadt (19:18.964)
So you really had to have both A and B roll reel to reels in order to sync them up with those 60, 70 hours of material and then be able to cut it into a movie, which is what Peter Jackson did. I did find what I found was a Japanese bootlegger who I think was dealing directly with the guy that had stolen the reels. And he would send one reel over and this guy would

turn it into a CD and then sell them on his website and then back would go the reel to reel. So those were the first things I found were all the CDs. So there was no loss of generation, but it allowed Apple and the Beatles to hear everything that was on the

Chad (20:12.38)
And how did they go about, I know it was only a second generation copy, but how did they go about cleaning up the audio? I remember reading a lot about how Peter Jackson spent thousands of hours at Imagine working on making sure that the audio was pristine.

Jim Berkenstadt (20:12.382)
So.

Jim Berkenstadt (20:29.96)
What I do know is, you know, I'm not a technical engineer or anything. I'm only a rock and roll detective, but I will tell you that he developed a new technology called MAL, which was named after Mal Evans, the Beatles' beloved roadie. And it's a technology that allowed them to not only clean up the tapes, but more importantly, if you had a...

one of the Beatles singing, but another Beatles on mic and he's just chatting to another Beatle and they're just blah, blah, blah. That, you know, erodes the clearness of the sound of the person who's singing. So this MAL software allowed Peter Jackson to separate the singing from chit chat in the background, which of course made it much better, cause then they can mix.

mix the soundtrack anyway they want so that you can hear the more important musical information going on. But if there's a conversation that he wants, you raise the sound of the conversation, lower the sound of the music if it's just a bunch of people noodling on their guitars or tuning their guitars. So it made the movie much better.

Chad (21:52.606)
Yeah, the audio was just crystal clear. Yeah, it was very amazing. So you wrote a book about another maybe lesser known piece of Beatle history, but one that's really intriguing to me. And the book is called The Beatle Who Vanished. Do want to give the audience a bit of background about who Jimmie Nicol was and how you got the idea to go after his history?

Jim Berkenstadt (21:56.456)
Yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (22:14.324)
Yeah, so Jimmie Nicol was a drummer who was well known in London circles, local London circles of music. He had played with bands starting in the 1950s, but he had played in rock bands. He had played in rhythm and blues bands. He had played in big bands even that were still around in England. And then in of 64, he got a great gig as a session musician.

at Pi Records. so that was, you know, he was doing very well. Session musicians at the time in England in 1964 made three times more annual salary than a typical British factory worker. And they really only worked, you know, maybe three hours in the morning, three hours in the afternoon, and they were done. So it wasn't like later on when you heard of

bands being in the studio for 15, 20 hours at a time. It was very regulated and unionized and all this, all these rules. you basically try to record one song in the morning, one song in the afternoon. So he was doing these recordings. He then latched on to Georgie Fame, the Blue Flames, which was a really hot R &B band at the time on the rise.

and would play with them at the Flamingo at nighttime and probably get home around two in the morning. then, and Paul McCartney used to go to those because he was friends with Georgie Fame. So he saw Jimmie Nicol drumming. But then back to sessions, one day he was doing a session in the spring of 64 and it was for a guy named Tommy Quickly, who was one of

young men in the stable of Brian Epstein. He not only managed the Beatles, but managed many other people. So I found like just scraps of video from the BBC that showed Jimmie Nicol on that session. It showed Brian Epstein looking over at him, watching him, showed him upstairs in the control room, looking at Jimmie Nicol through the glass and the rest of

Jim Berkenstadt (24:37.022)
people down there and I thought, okay, so now I know how Brian Epstein was familiar with him. For some reason, the internet and Wikipedia always say George Martin had worked with Jimmie Nicol. He knew how good he was. That's all a bunch of BS or Wikipedia or AI mistakes. I interviewed George Martin before he passed away and he said to me, I never knew Jimmie Nicol until the day he walked in for that tryout.

I had heard of him, but I couldn't use him because he was contracted to Pi Records and I was contracted to Parlophone Records and back then everything was very strict. There weren't these things where people were lending out members of their band to other bands. In fact, when that first started to happen with The Beatles, for example, Eric Clapton playing on The White Album, The Beatles, a couple Beatles singing on The Rolling Stones album, they would always do it secretly.

You would either leave your names off the credits or they would make up a phony name so that you got credit. lawyers didn't know how to make this work back then. Those dumb lawyers, know. So anyway, it was very interesting time. I think that, you know, the George Martin just didn't know him. He had heard of him. That was it. So I later found out

Chad (25:47.92)
Hahaha

Jim Berkenstadt (26:03.89)
When Brian Epstein called George Martin and said, you know, need to get a hold of this guy. And he was the third drummer that they needed to get a hold of when Ringo went into the hospital suddenly the day before the tour. George Martin called over to a guy named Charlie the Fixer. His job was to set up whatever producers needed in the studio the next day. He would make sure those musicians were

So he called him for Jimmie Nicols number. He ended up getting Charlie's wife, Nita. And I interviewed Nita a few years ago. She was 104 years old and had an amazing memory. And she goes, I'll never forget that day. George Martin called me and he said, you know, what do you think of this drummer, Jimmie Nicol? And she said, oh, he's great. can play all different styles. He can read music. He can pick up on what other people are doing. He jams a lot.

And he said, well, do you think, you know, we need someone to replace Ringo on tour with the Beatles. Do you think he could do that? And she said, yeah, just comb his hair down and give him some bangs. He'll be fine. He said, he's a great drummer and he'll adapt to the band right away. So then George Martin called Jimmie and the rest is history, invited him down for a

Chad (27:14.064)
Ha ha.

Chad (27:25.042)
So Jimmie played for 13 days I think it was and it's grand total of eight shows and Ringo was hospitalized for tonsillitis did I get that right? Yeah so Whirlwind I mean you know how did they I guess that he just fly out and meet them you know in the middle of the tour like how did that all come to come about?

Jim Berkenstadt (27:46.58)
Well, what's funny is after he played a set of about eight songs with the Beatles, they were amazed because he knew Ringo's parts. You know, remember every song has different parts and drummers have to play their two arms and two legs. So that's four things that are going in different rhythms and styles. And all of sudden they look over, it's like, how does this guy know how to play?

Chad (28:05.412)
yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (28:15.89)
Ringo's parts. Well, when he first started working at Pi, I discovered that Jimmie Nicol had been working on a project whereby they would do cover versions of the top hits of the day. They picked the top six hits on the chart. Most of the time, those were Beatle songs. And by the time June came around, and he's coming into Abbey Road to play with the Beatles, he had learned all the songs

Ringo's parts to all those songs that would be on the set list for the concert tour. And so he knew their parts already. So there's just a lot of really amazing things where in terms of the Beatles perspective, the stars really came together. They got the absolute best possible guide it could have gotten to make sure the tour didn't crash and burn without Ringo. Cause back then you couldn't cancel.

tours, there were no out clauses in the contracts. The life of a pop star was very short. If you got bad publicity, you were finished. So it really just worked out perfectly that Jimmie knew what he was doing. so back to your original question, after that tryout, John Lennon said, right, you're in. And then he had a little chat with

Brian about you know what what we're gonna pay you and all of that and then Jimmie left and he went to a pub with a friend of his and It was nearby Abbey Road and all of a sudden Mal Evans came in and said here's my card if you need anything Let me know I'm gonna be taking care of you and the Beatles on the tour You need to get home soon because we're sending a tailor over with Ringo suits You know anyone it they want to get it. You know fitted to Rick to Jimmie

You need a suitcase and you know we got to work on a passport and all those things. So things started to happen pretty quickly in the pub so he had to get going. So the next day he actually was picked up by the Beatles limo. They took him to the airport with the Beatles and then they flew to the Netherlands.

Chad (30:20.017)
as they usually do.

Chad (30:34.864)
I just want to point out something too, because I think a lot of people still to this day like to hate on Ringo and say he's not a great drummer, but he really is. And for somebody to know all the songs and all the parts, you know, sort of down pat first time out playing is pretty impressive. You know, I mean, for any drummer to learn any other drummers stuff like that, but Ringo was so nuanced and just played the right thing for the song.

Jim Berkenstadt (30:35.154)
I just want point out something too, because I think a lot of people still like to hate Marco, so he's not a great driver, but he really is. And for somebody to know...

Jim Berkenstadt (31:02.994)
right. Well, that's a very interesting point because also consider the fact that Jimmie Nicol was a right -handed player and Ringo Starr was a lefty. He's a lefty that played a right -handed kit so that's even more complicated. So I think the Fills were, they sounded different because when a lefty plays a right -handed kit for some reason that the Fills sound

Chad (31:17.883)
That's right, he was a lefty.

Yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (31:32.424)
But yeah, Ringo had a very nuanced sound, excellent drummer. still playing today, which is amazing. And one time I experimented with taking a couple of different Beatle studio songs and then Ringo playing those same songs live with the Beatles and intercut them. And his timing in the studio and his timing on these live records were identical.

mean, he just didn't miss a beat and he kept perfect time.

Chad (32:04.805)
yeah, he's solid and he's played with everybody. know, I mean, like you said, he's still playing now, but I mean, Post Beatles, he's just been on so many records and so many people have played on his solo records. It's really great.

Jim Berkenstadt (32:16.722)
Yeah, yeah, he's quite amazing. mean, he's done a lot in his life and it's great to see him still out there on the road entertaining people. love

Chad (32:26.821)
Yeah, for sure. And I think Paul's gonna live forever or so it seems. He's still going also, mean. For sure. So how are you able to find out so much about Jimmie Nicol and his career given that he was sort of a footnote in the music history books?

Jim Berkenstadt (32:31.9)
I hope they all live forever,

Jim Berkenstadt (32:44.584)
Yeah, he was one of the classiest footnotes, certainly in Beatles history. I think it was, at first it was quite difficult because there was only really one sentence in in Beatle history books. And then I even looked in just British books, music books from the 60s history. And, you know, most of them didn't even mention Jimmie Nicol, but the Beatle history books just had one sentence that was basically

Uh, for a couple of weeks in 1964, Jimmie drummer, Jimmie Nicol took over for Ringo star who went into the hospital with tonsillitis. And that's all you ever heard. And so I was fascinated to think about, well, how did he get chosen? There must've been a million drummers that could have chosen. How was he the one picked and why? And, what did he do in those years leading up to 19 mid 64 when he got chosen? Then I wanted to know,

What's it like for an everyday guy who walks down the street, no one even looks at him. The next day he gets out of a limo with the Beatles and they tear him apart, tears hair apart and his clothes. What's that like to go from an everyday person to suddenly you're a Beatle? I mean, that's really flipping a switch. And how do you deal with that? And then you kind of get used to that and like, wow, I'm in a limo, I'm in a fancy hotel suite. I can order whatever food I want, whatever.

drinks I want. He enjoyed the press conferences. There's video people can find on YouTube of press conferences with Jimmie Nicol and he enjoyed playing of course with them and just the whole fun experience of he had never really been around the world. So this was a great entree into that and I think he really enjoyed travel. I think he enjoyed meeting new people in new places. He was a very

I guess he's just a guy that really wanted to explore the world, to know people all over the world. He's like an adventurer almost. So yeah, and then at the end after that, I wanted to know what do you do when you have reached the peak of entertainment at age 25? How do you deal with that the rest of your life? And to me, there's a little bit of

Jim Berkenstadt (35:09.544)
You know, it's a little bit of a blessing and a curse at the same time. It's a blessing because then people will know you. It might possibly lead to other work and such. But it's also kind of a curse because it's like you're never going to be back in that same position again. They didn't decide to discard Ringo and choose Jimmie Nicol. And, you know, maybe he wishes they did. So all of those things went into me being interested

wanting to learn more about him. At first I thought it would just be an article, but the more I started to find old musicians that knew him in London, one led to the next, which led to the next. You know, I'd always ask at the end of an interview, are there any other people that you know that are still alive that I should talk to? yeah, you gotta talk to this guy, he was his roadie. Talk to this guy, he was the guy that Next hired Jimmie.

And so I was very lucky that everybody was willing to turn me on to the next people. The tough part was in 1965, he walked out the door with no job, no one knew where he went. He just left England and he vanished. And so that was part of where the title comes from. And

Next thing I know, able, I think what I did was I saw that when he had a solo band after the Beatles called the Shubdubs, they went to Denmark. And when they went to Denmark, I looked at all the bands on the same concert bill and I said, maybe I should contact each of them and see if they know where Jimmie went after that. And one of the bands was called the Spotnicks and sure enough,

the keyboard player said, well, next place he went was to us because our drummer wasn't allowed to tour anymore because he had just gotten married and his wife wouldn't let him go out with the band. So I said, my gosh, I found him now. And literally everyone goes, well, of course, he went to the Spontanix. Well, yeah, that's because I found that out and wrote a book. So it's funny because then I'm able to talk to the Spontanix.

Chad (37:09.614)
Ha ha ha.

Jim Berkenstadt (37:26.482)
He ends two years later, he's in Mexico with the Sputniks and something happens and he gets let go. And I asked the Sputniks, well, where did he go next? Well, we know he likes Basanova and he likes good looking women. So we think he went to Brazil. So that unfortunately, that was a false lead that took me down a rabbit hole for, I don't know, three months and there was nothing in Brazil related to

Chad (37:44.752)
So.

Jim Berkenstadt (37:54.671)
Somehow I just thought of, maybe if I Google something like Mexican rock and roll historian, I can contact that person if there is such a person. And I did. And sure enough, he goes, yeah, well, Jimmie, after the Spotnicks, he stayed here in Mexico City and he married this gal and he did this and that. And I'm like, this is amazing.

He put me in touch with the woman that Jimmie married. He put me in touch with people that Jimmie knew before he got married there, the whole thing, before, after. And so each time, I think there's a little bit of luck involved in getting the whole story. You you try and try and try, and sometimes you have to just sort of let it go for a while and something will happen.

Chad (38:45.754)
this took you physically all over the world. Like you traveled to go talk to people in person and chase down leads. And how long did all the research take? Like, you know, when did you have the book, I guess, is the question from the time that you started.

Jim Berkenstadt (38:52.52)
Yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (38:59.346)
Yeah, I think that, I think between the travel and internet research and interviewing people over the phone, or I don't think we had Zoom then, so must have been over the phone. I think the whole, that whole initial thing took about seven years of research. And then the book, I think I took one year to pull it all together and write it and then put it

and it came out in 2013. But then over the next say 10 years, I kept thinking that I hadn't really finished the job. He was still the beetle who vanished. And I spent those next 10 years finding out more information about Jimmie. Of course, people write to you when you write a book and they'll say, oh, I knew Jimmie or I knew somebody who knew him. And so you follow up those leads, you follow your own leads and...

Eventually I was able to determine what did happen to Jimmie Nicol after all

Chad (40:04.515)
fascinating and just a couple more questions about Jimmie's story so there was a gold engraved watch given to him by Brian Epstein and the Beatles how did that play into his story

Jim Berkenstadt (40:19.25)
Well, it's interesting a couple ways. First of all, it's really the most iconic item that Jimmie Nicol received as a result of touring. He blew all the money he was paid. But the watch he was very proud of. But again, there were things that didn't quite go his way. At the end of the tour, he was talking over the other Beatles at the press conference.

Because the media was ignoring him, but there was a guy right next to him like what are gonna do when you get back to London? But he had a live mic so By talking to this guy he was interrupting the other Beatles and they all the media wanted to know Ringo What's it like you're back and you sing all this all these things so Brian Epstein just ripped him apart After that press conference and said you know you're done go back to your room pack your bags

And Jimmie had been treated really well all through the tour until Brian Epstein flew back with Ringo Starr to Melbourne. So Jimmie didn't really take kindly to that attitude. And so he escaped and went to a pub and was drinking. then Neil Aspinall was sent down there to bring Jimmie back. And Jimmie said, why do I have to go back with you?

He said, I'm not a beetle anymore. Brian basically quoting, I'm sorry, Neil Aspinal quoting Brian Epstein said, you are a beetle until we put you back on that plane. So he had a bad taste at the end, but at the same time he was very proud that he had played with the Beatles. So when he got to really Mexico and he was sort of just

Chad (41:54.746)
Hahaha

Jim Berkenstadt (42:09.65)
in middle of nowhere, he didn't have a band, he had to find friends to just bunk with and people he had made friends with there. He would show his watch around and say, yeah, I played drums with the Beatles. And then next thing you know, well, we'd love you to come join our band or we'd love you to jam with us. so that, and then word spread, hey, there's a Beatle in Mexico City. And then that made him quite popular. you know, there were good and bad things about it,

I was told by Jimmie's, what would be Jimmie's second wife, who was a Mexican woman, that he got really mad one day and he took the watch with the gold engraving and slammed it into a dresser drawer and it broke into a million pieces. And really the only thing left to salvage was the back engraved piece. All the little moving parts and things were broken.

And no one knew how to put a watch back together, I don't think. So, at least not in those days. So, you know, so that he kept that. And then, you know, in the new version of the book, which is called The Beetle Who Vanished 60th Beetle's Anniversary Tour Edition, which is the new version is what we've been talking about too, where I discover what happened to him. I also find out what

happened to the gold watch or the gold watch back. And it's a very interesting story. And it involves a reporter that unexpectedly showed up on Jimmie's doorstep and Jimmie wasn't happy to be bothered and all that. So it's a really interesting story how that came up. then the whole search for Jimmie Nicol,

was again one of those things where I was looking at a world map and all the places he had been. And I'm trying to figure out, well, you know, which pin on the map should I be looking for? But I went back and looked at old interviews and I started to find a pattern of common clues. And I don't want to go too far with this because it's really fun to read about it, but these common clues kept pointing to a woman.

Jim Berkenstadt (44:34.342)
And I talked to my brother about it he'd say, Jim, in any mystery, if you can follow the woman, you'll find the guy. And I said, no, I never knew that. So I did that. And ultimately, that was a really good idea. And it was really interesting how this mystery woman, intriguing gal, led me to find out what happened to Jimmie Nicol.

Chad (44:42.988)
hahahaha

Chad (45:02.788)
wow. Such a great story. And I just remember seeing years ago, there is this iconic black and white photo of Jimmie sitting in the airport. I'm guessing it was in Melbourne, right? Yeah, and he's sort of smoking a cigarette, I feel like and he just looks like he's exhausted. So that kind of Yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (45:05.108)
That's a great story. And I just remember seeing it once again in this iconic black and white photo of the ship spinning in the air for the next few Yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (45:20.52)
He's kind of in a daze. Yeah, there's a full page photo of that which I licensed in the book. And Jimmie in fact talked about it later in an unreleased interview that I was able to get from a Holland Beatles fan club. They were able to coax him into coming to one sort of a Beatle festival there. He never went to any others.

Jimmie said, yes, that's a really telling photo. It means so many things. To me, he looks like he has PTSD, like having just been through a war, which is what it was like to get through the gauntlet as a beetle during the height of Beatlemania. Literally, it was hard to get from a cab to a hotel.

And then constantly people were trying to sneak into the hotel to get to you. It was non -stop and wherever you went you were being chased. you know, there's that part of it where he was probably like you were saying exhausted. And then there's a part of it like, wow, that was so great. But now I'm sitting here all alone at the airport and you know, no one wants my autograph. No one's bothering me. No one even recognizes me. So it's a great photo.

Chad (46:41.146)
Yeah. Right?

Jim Berkenstadt (46:45.552)
But again, I'd say it best illustrates what I was trying to say that, you know, there's sort of a good and bad to what he went through as a Beatle. know, positives and negatives of such a brief but amazing and historic experience. And that's what I try to capture, you know, in the

Chad (47:08.698)
So where can my audience find a copy of the new version of the book? Because I know a lot of people that would be super interested to read this.

Jim Berkenstadt (47:16.584)
Yeah, sure. Well, it's available all over the world at Amazon's around the world. It's in three formats at Amazon, Kindle ebook, hardcover and paperback. And it's called The Beetle Who Vanished 60th Beetle's Anniversary Tour Edition. It's also available if readers want signed copies from me. They can go to the book's website, which is The Beetle

Vanished .com and you can order a book there. Although it's we only ship to America. So if you have people outside of America, they should probably go to Amazon.

Chad (48:00.485)
I'll put a link in the show notes to that website and yours obviously as well. Absolutely. So one last question about the book and then I'd like to pivot a bit. So you've optioned this for a motion picture.

Jim Berkenstadt (48:05.822)
thank

Jim Berkenstadt (48:14.578)
Yes, that's true. The book has been optioned to a British film company and they're also partnering with a Los Angeles production company and they're in what is called pre -development. So they're in a phase where they're interviewing directors and screenwriters to see who they're going to select and hire. then basically that's

called a package and then they take that package maybe to an even larger studio which might have more greater worldwide distribution that sort of thing. And so it's exciting. I'll be an executive producer and also I'll consult to the screenwriter if he has any questions or about the book or historical things that he wants me to look into. I'll be doing that for the film as well.

So I'm looking forward to that. That should be fun. Yeah.

Chad (49:12.588)
that's super cool I can't wait to see it. So you've worked with some other artists who I absolutely love just looking at your website before we record it so maybe I can just ask you to tell me a bit about some of those. So you are the official historian for the band Garbage and you've done lots of work with Butch Vig who I idolize as a producer.

Jim Berkenstadt (49:31.324)
you know? great. I will tell him to watch this podcast. He'll like

Chad (49:39.984)
Hey, if he ever wants to come on and be a guest, I'd be happy to have him. But yeah, tell me a bit about your work with him. he seems like such a great guy. Yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (49:43.368)
Yeah, he's a great guy. And such a talent.

So, I'm sorry, did I miss your question?

Chad (49:52.631)
Yeah, tell me a bit about your work with garbage and the capacity that you've said that you're their official historian.

Jim Berkenstadt (49:59.028)
Yeah, well that's what they told me anyway. I mean, one of the things I do is over the years since guess 94, I keep track of and keep adding to their worldwide discography so they know what's been released where and when and on what label and all that sort of thing. I don't know, I think

Chad (50:01.479)
Hahaha

Jim Berkenstadt (50:25.704)
I've been called on to do different things. let's see. well, they put out a book, a book of their own history. So I was involved in, you know, looking things up for them. I've written articles about them, like Musician Magazine, which I don't think exists anymore, but was a really cool magazine for both musicians and music lovers. So, yeah, I mean, I just help them out in whatever comes up, know, whatever they want, they just call on me.

It's just really satisfying and fun to be able to help them when they need it. They're wonderful people.

Chad (51:05.944)
That's awesome. You also list a couple other names on your client's page that I'd love to hear more about what you've done with them. Jim Keltner, one of my favorite drummers ever.

Jim Berkenstadt (51:17.138)
Right. He's a good friend of mine and he's just really one of my favorite drummers. And I think what started our friendship was I did a profile article on him in a magazine, a music magazine, probably in the mid nineties again. And, you know, and it just kind of turned into us talking on the phone and such. And then when I would come out to LA, we would get together

you know, go to dinner or lunch or something. And then one time I remember I was walking around in a Walgreens and my phone rang and he said, Jim, this is Jim Keltner. he said they were going to reunite John Lennon's Plastic Ono Band in Brooklyn. And so it was going to be Yoko and Shawn

And then Eric Clapton, Klaus Vorman and Jim Keltner on drums. So I was like, my God, you know, is this going to be a concert? He goes, yeah. And there'll be other, many other New York type artists on the bill. And I said, wow, well, when is it? And he told me the date. And so this was really before ticketing got all messed up and was, you know, people were able to get in before it opens up

and you're stuck paying $1 ,000 for something. was back in the good old days. And I called up the Brooklyn Academy of Music and said, hey, when's this going on sale? And they said in two days at 10 o 'clock. So I called in at 9 .55 on that day, and I was the first one to call. No one else was calling. I don't think it was really promoted yet. So I got two great seats in the second row.

and Jim Keltner and Klaus Vorman I knew. So they both invited me to the VIP after party, which was amazing. it was just a wonderful experience to kind of see things that, you know, even though sadly John wasn't there, you know, just to see that band again, which was an ever changing band in fact, to be able to see it in person because, you know, when the records and things used to come out, was, you

Jim Berkenstadt (53:38.002)
sitting at home buying records, and I was a kid. So it was great to be able to go out to New York and see that. So we've just been, you know, close ever since. Whenever I'm out there, we get together and we chat on the phone about music. you know, we chat about all types of things, you know, life. He's another absolute wonderful, great person, a great family man, a wonderful artist.

Chad (53:57.282)
You

Jim Berkenstadt (54:07.518)
Just great. That's the only word I can think

Chad (54:09.729)
Yeah. He seems like a great guy. You know, I've watched a ton of interviews with him over the years and he really just seems like he's so down to earth and so cool. One more person I wanted to ask about Scotty Moore, who maybe the audience wouldn't recognize that name as much as some of the others that we've talked about, but Scotty played guitar for Elvis for years and really pioneered a lot of rock and roll guitar technique.

Jim Berkenstadt (54:35.666)
None of that, he was actually and contractually Elvis Presley's first manager. Yeah, before Colonel Tom Parker came along, there were all these people that were, once their first single, That's Alright Mama was on the radio, all these people were starting to badger Elvis and calls were coming to him. And so he just needed someone to feel them. And he said,

Chad (54:42.739)
I didn't know that. For the Colonel.

Jim Berkenstadt (55:03.592)
you managed your other band, why don't you manage me? So they did. so, well anyway, I knew Scotty because he was interested in doing a of a conversational book in your own words type of thing. So we sat on the phone probably for over the course of two years and I would talk to him about different aspects of his career, mostly his time with Elvis, but also

There was sort of a point in time where Colonel Parker pushed him out of the band as well as Bill Black. And so then they kind of reunited for that big NBC television special in I think 1968, which is really cool. And because Elvis does sort of an unplugged set with his old buddies on the stage in the round.

So was just really, it was almost like talking to your grandfather every week. He was just so nice, so friendly. He was very funny. He had a lot of great anecdotes. He did not like Colonel Tom Parker, that's for sure. He felt he was a dastardly guy. He did give a lot of credit to Marion Kysker, who worked at Sun Records.

He said, know, a lot of people just think she was a secretary, but she was far more than that. And Elvis really owes her that a gratitude for pushing his demo tapes and things. So it was really just great stuff that I learned along the way that was really fun. And we just became friends. then, you know, sadly again, for some reason.

You know, I always thought growing up that all of my rock and roll heroes would be alive forever. And apparently that's not the case. So sadly, he's no longer with us, but at least his music is left behind.

Chad (57:03.509)
Sure.

Chad (57:13.87)
That's the beauty. It's that's the legacy of these guys, you know, we can listen to them forever. So Jim, this has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate you being on the podcast with me. I have one final question for you. What's your next mystery? What's what's coming down the pike?

Jim Berkenstadt (57:28.862)
Well, I am going to do something that relates to John Lennon's youth and it relates back to a guitar that he stole a guitar, according to Paul and George, at a Manchester music competition. It was sort of like American Idol, but in those days, the fans clapping would determine which band or which juggler or whatever would.

would rise to the finals and then be selected and then that person would get to be on a TV show with this guy, Carol, Carol something, can't remember his last name, but he liked to put together these sort of variety shows and he would do these competitions. He'd fill the seats all over England and these various towns. So the Beatles were not able to stay behind for the finals because

the last train from Manchester back to Liverpool was running and they had to reach that train or they'd be sleeping on the streets. So they left before they could finish the finals and John just grabbed a guitar on the way out. So decades later in 1996, allegedly some workmen found a guitar in John's loft at his childhood home, which is called Mendips in Liverpool.

The question is, is this the same guitar? If so, it would be his very first electric guitar that he owned. And that's pretty big historically. If not, then it's not. it's just that I've always enjoyed looking into some of these guitar mysteries. And when one popped up, I just thought, OK, that one's meant for me to look into.

Chad (59:09.583)
Sure.

Jim Berkenstadt (59:24.402)
I've seen others, there's one about, that's gonna be a documentary soon about Randy Bachman of Bachman Turner Overdrive and the Guess Who had his most famous guitar stolen. It's the one he wrote all his hits with. And in the documentary, which I've seen a rough cut, he said, I never wrote another hit once that guitar disappeared. It was like I lost the magic. So it's very interesting. I won't tell people what happens there,

Chad (59:49.394)
wow.

Jim Berkenstadt (59:54.704)
I love these, for some reason I love these mysteries of classic rock guitars going missing.

Chad (01:00:01.689)
There's another one that just,

was found recently, was Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumpkins, who by the way, Butch Vig produced a couple of their albums. Billy lost the guitar that I think he used on a lot of the sessions for their first album, Gish. It was stolen and it was found in somebody's bedroom or something like 15 or 16 years later, magically made its way back to him. And there's this great video on YouTube, I'll link it in the show notes for the audience, but sort of shows him

uniting with the guitar and you know he's just so excited to have this thing back because it was such a piece of his history and the guitar that he wrote you know his first big album on so that's such a great thread you know like missing instruments and stolen instruments yeah right

Jim Berkenstadt (01:00:46.938)
is it's like your baby like I lost my baby only it's a guitar and and that's a lot of people feel that way about their instruments and I can understand that. I have a friend who is a long time session player in pop music and rock and roll going back to Frank Sinatra in the 60s he plays cello and whenever he had to fly the cello got its own seat and got seat belted in and it never left his sight.

because it meant so much to him. He never wanted it smashed down below or stolen.

Chad (01:01:24.046)
I can totally sympathize with that. The pink paisley telecaster on the wall behind me, I've had that since 1993. And I would just be crushed if anything ever happened to that thing. So I totally understand that.

Jim Berkenstadt (01:01:25.086)
Yeah.

Jim Berkenstadt (01:01:39.71)
Well, the tough thing is, my wife reminds me about my memorabilia. She says, you can't take it with you. Just remember that you're not gonna live forever. And I'm like, yes, I am. I want to enjoy my memorabilia.

Chad (01:01:47.393)
That's right.

Chad (01:01:51.15)
Well, when you figure out how to live forever, let me know. I'm in. That's great. Well, again, Jim, thank you so much. Anything else you want to share before we wrap?

Jim Berkenstadt (01:01:57.648)
I will, we'll put it in the show notes.

Jim Berkenstadt (01:02:08.274)
No, if people want just a general idea about my history as a rock and roll detective, there's another website called rockandrolldetective .com and they can learn about that. But otherwise, you know, it's been a real pleasure, Chad. I appreciate you having me on. Thank

Chad (01:02:26.572)
Yeah, thank you again.