Episode 26 transcript

Note: this transcript is AI-generated, and as such, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.

Chad (00:01.327)
Hello and welcome back to the Aural Mess podcast. I'm joined this week by Kat Prow. Hi Kat.

Katrina Prow (00:07.102)
Hi, nice to meet you. Good, I'm doing well. How are you?

Chad (00:08.463)
How's it going? Nice to meet you too. Doing great. So we were just talking about how we're on opposite coasts yet it's really hot on both sides today. So I've just been dying in the heat all day.

Katrina Prow (00:18.846)
Yes. Yes, that is true. Not as hot as it was last week, but it's not slowing down and apartments don't have AC usually in California. So we're hot. We're hot here.

Chad (00:31.952)
man, yeah, it's hot here too. I felt bad I had a crew here today cutting some limbs off of a tree and these poor guys were just like dying in the 92 degree heat with all the humidity. It was just awful. But you know, I guess they have to do what they have to do.

Katrina Prow (00:49.566)
It's the dead of summer. I know it's like gonna just get worse next month. So I'm like just blinds. I'm pretty much living in the dark here. All the blinds closed, you know, windows closed, fans on 24 seven. Yeah, full goth mode.

Chad (01:03.791)
full goth mode. There you go. Great. So why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself.

Katrina Prow (01:10.686)
Yeah. So I am a professor of creative writing. I have my, I technically have my doctorate in creative writing. So I'm a doctor of creative writing, which sounds kind of silly to say out loud, but that is the truth. I primarily teach at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo, California Polytechnic University. I also teach a couple of classes online with UC Berkeley.

but I also moonlight on the weekends as a waitress and I am also a spin instructor. So I do a little bit of everything. Yeah.

Chad (01:48.655)
Wow, that's really cool. And your experience in the service industry really comes through in some of your writing that I read. You sent me a few of your essays, and we'll dig into those in a little bit. But creative writing, it's not silly to say. I think that's fantastic. And it was probably my favorite class that I took in high school, and even I took a creative writing class in college as well. Really enjoyed it.

Katrina Prow (01:57.022)
us.

Yes.

Katrina Prow (02:12.862)
Yeah, it's a lot of fun and I feel really like hashtag blessed that I get to teach creative writing. I mean, it's the best class to teach. I'm really fortunate at Cal Poly that I teach all fiction and a couple non -fiction. And so I love it. I mean, I always joke I wish it paid more so I didn't have to wait tables anymore. But until then, I really have like my dream job. Really happy.

Chad (02:37.455)
That's great.

So let's talk about music, which is why we're here anyway, really. But and, you know, spoiler alert, we're going to be talking, I think, a little bit in depth about Fiona Apple. But, you know, I usually ask my guests to send me a playlist and I get everything from, you know, 10 songs to 20 songs to just random stuff. And your playlist was definitely one of the best and most well thought out that I think I've gotten yet. You know, 50 songs to get to know you. But it was more like seven

Katrina Prow (02:47.774)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (03:05.054)
Thank you.

Chad (03:08.512)
70 something songs, which is totally my MO making a playlist. I'm like, just cut it at like 15, 20 songs. And then like, you know, it ends up being 40. But man, like you really started out strong.

Katrina Prow (03:09.502)
Hahaha!

Katrina Prow (03:15.454)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (03:21.902)
The sequencing is, you know, I don't know how much thought you put into it and it seems like you really did because it flows. And I mean, we go from sort of one genre, one era to another seamlessly. So you start out really strong with sort of a, I don't want to say a buried Madonna track, but not one of the obvious hits. And then we go into Janet Jackson and SWV, then the TLC.

Katrina Prow (03:27.358)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (03:40.766)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (03:45.566)
my favorites. I mean, that's those are SWV. That was my very first tape ever was It's About Time. And I don't even know if I like knew what it was like, I think it was like in a bucket at warehouse music, you know, rest in peace. And I was like, I want this one, they look cool. And forever changed my life. I mean, that's such a great album.

Chad (03:53.502)
wow, okay.

Chad (04:10.67)
I just played I'm So Into You at a barbecue. Yeah. It's like that whole album is just awesome.

Katrina Prow (04:15.198)
The best. The best. That's what I mean. That should be a limitless test, right? Like if someone doesn't like, I'm so into you, then like, you just know, like this is a bad person. We got to get them out. Like that song is just nothing but classic and good.

Chad (04:32.269)
for sure. And then, you know, you continue the whole diva train with Paula Abdul, Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, Lauren Hill. It's just like boom, boom, boom, one after the other. So like you just drew me right in, like, you know, and then it's funny because you kind of detour and, you know, sort of transition into like this post grunge nineties kind of thing, like Santa Monica by Everclear, evergreen favorite of mine. Tyler by the Toadies, which, you know, love that song too. It's funny, my band covered Santa Monica.

Katrina Prow (04:38.718)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (04:58.334)
love that song.

Chad (05:02.175)
years ago and we also used to do Possum Kingdom by the Toadies. Yeah and then Sour Girl by Stone Temple Pilots. Why that song over all the other ones?

Katrina Prow (05:06.558)
So good.

Katrina Prow (05:10.398)
I don't know, I have such, I think one thing that I love about music is that it has like this opportunity to take you back. It's so nostalgic and it takes you to such like a specific time and place. I can remember that music video was really weird. I think there was like furries in it and people were so confused by it. and I love Stone Temple Pilots, but there's something about Sour Girl. and I love that

I mean on my Twitter handle it even says like writer, waitress, sour girl. I mean, I kind of identify with, which I mean is very few on Apple, with this kind of like moody, you know, I'm a girl but I don't have to be nice to you. So I just like love that it was called Sour Girl. And there's something about that track that for me that's like my favorite Stone Tumble pilot track. I know people hated it.

But when I was putting together this playlist, I'm like, I want to try to like not pick the favorites, but the ones that are like, this is my favorite song and I don't really care if you hate it or if you thought the music video was lame. But that track just, it stands out for me out of all their songs, but I do love Stone Tumble Pilots. Like they're amazing. They don't get enough love, I think in that like grunge era. No.

Chad (06:29.613)
Yeah, they don't get enough love. And it's really funny that they've started to get some sort of retroactive love recently. Like, I don't know if you're familiar with Rick Beato. He's the guy that does all the videos where he interviews musicians and, you know, talks about why songs are great and how things are recorded and dissects all the instrumental parts or whatever great, great channel on YouTube. But he recently did an interview with Robert DeLeo, who's the bass player. And man, he's one of my favorite bass players of all time. He's just my

Katrina Prow (06:44.574)
Yeah.

Chad (06:59.52)
melodic and if you strip the song down and listen to what he's actually playing it's just like how did he come up with that? It's like this whole song in and of itself in the bass line it's fantastic.

Katrina Prow (07:08.158)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (07:12.254)
Yeah, I don't, I will say like the core, I like the chorus of the song, but it is kind of like that beginning and that baseline. It's really kind of like haunting and the lyrics are disturbing. Like there's something about that song that is just weird and I love weird. So that's a winner for me. Yeah.

Chad (07:31.022)
Me too. Yeah, why land was his lyrics? I mean he was definitely a depressed out there kind of dude Yeah, so then we slow things down a little bit and you know dare I say depressing and we get into Casimir Pulaski day by Sufjan Stevens one of my favorite songs of all time But I have to listen to it in a certain mind frame or it makes me cry

Katrina Prow (07:37.534)
Yeah. Yeah.

Katrina Prow (07:50.366)
now. Yes.

I don't think I can listen to that song without crying like that. There's two songs and it's also the Elliott Smith one, Pitzla. Like those two songs, I don't know what, those are like instant cry songs for me. I mean, Sufjan Stevens, Everything is Sad, but that song in particular, like don't put it on. I mean, it's a great song to put on when you want to cry, right? When you're like, I'm ready to feel some feelings.

I have the perfect track. Let me just put this on and I'll start sobbing for everything that's happened for the last like five years. Yeah. Great one.

Chad (08:28.813)
Yeah. How did you come across Sufjan? I mean, just out of curiosity, because I know I sort of found him on like a compilation kind of thing years ago, like pre internet streaming, you know.

Katrina Prow (08:40.318)
Yeah, so at that time I was in college and I think I was probably coming to him a little bit late. And I write about this a little bit in that Fiona Apple essay, but when I went to Cal State Long Beach the first two years, I lived in the dorms and this is post Napster. So it's still early 2000s, 2003, 2004, post Napster, but we're still sharing music.

And I think a lot of people my age were afraid of getting viruses on their computers. People were like starting to get IMAX and everyone had iTunes. And so the rage was this program called MyTunes. And I don't even know if, does everybody know about MyTunes? Someone, nobody knows about MyTunes, but when you're in the dorms, we all shared the same wifi. And so you were able to rip music from.

Chad (09:20.716)
Yes!

No, nobody knows about it.

Katrina Prow (09:33.758)
you know, all of the hundreds of people who were living together in the dorms. And I do believe that, like, I must have ripped probably the Chicago album, the whole thing, because I was like, this looks cool. Like, there were a couple of people who were sharing things. And, I mean, that's how I discovered the Smiths and Morrissey. That's how I discovered, I mean, I had heard the Pixies, but like when I was listening to a lot of the Pixies, like a lot of the New Wave

sort of 80s music, but like I just didn't, it wasn't in my wheelhouse growing up. Then when you're in the dorms and everybody's sharing all this music. So I remember downloading the Chicago album then, or the Illinois album. And then I had a friend, I had a very cool friend, like sophomore year of college, who was working as an intern for W Magazine and for Paper Magazine, Rest In Peace Paper Magazine.

Chad (10:29.387)
well.

Katrina Prow (10:33.342)
And she was like, have you ever heard this, like, there are night zombies? I think it was, that was the song. She was like, have you heard this song? And I was like, no. And I mean, this sounds like we were stoned and we just thought the song was, blew our minds. But I remember being completely sober. I mean, I was 19 years old. And it was, again, like one of those like life -changing, I didn't know popular music could sound like this. Like I did not know.

Chad (10:48.427)
Ha ha ha.

Katrina Prow (11:00.542)
And the idea of a themed album, I mean, I thought that was so cool. And then I remember getting the Michigan album. I was like, this is just so cool that he's doing this. I even had the box set of his Christmas albums when he came out with those. But then I kind of like fell out after that. But man, the Illinois and the Michigan albums were so good. Just completely changed my mind of, I guess, what like a singer songwriter like.

Chad (11:13.004)
yeah, sure.

Katrina Prow (11:28.99)
I don't even know how you would categorize him, like what you could do with music because it was so different from everything that I knew.

Chad (11:31.501)
Yeah.

Chad (11:36.652)
Right, and shout out to the cool friends of the world.

Katrina Prow (11:39.358)
Yeah, I know. That cool friend was taking me to like paper. I remember because I had my fake ID. She was like, do you have a fake ID? I was like, yeah. And we were going to these cool parties at Paper Magazine in LA. And having one of these moments, I'm a small town kid. I was like, how did I get here? I remember seeing Anthony Kiedis at one point. And I was like, that's the guy from Red Hot Chili Peppers. And I'm definitely underage at this bar. And this is going to be a blast. Sorry, mom. You know? Yeah.

Chad (12:05.261)
I'm sure mom's okay with it now.

Katrina Prow (12:09.502)
Yeah, she doesn't care, I'm sure. Yeah.

Chad (12:11.437)
Yeah, that's great. So then we sort of crash into classic rock. So you touch on some Bowie, some Beach Boys, some Steely Dan, and then you kind of loop us back around to 90s hip hop again with the rest of development. Yeah. And then one standout track toward the end of the playlist. And I was just like, well, I thought I was the only one that remembers the song. And I'm not because it was a huge hit, but Automatic by the Pointer Sisters. I love that song. Yes.

Katrina Prow (12:20.702)
Yes.

Katrina Prow (12:25.182)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (12:38.782)
That's such a great song. Yeah, that is such a great song. And it was looping back around to that. I also have this really visceral memory growing up. We didn't have like a whole lot of money, but I remember my dad going to this garage sale and coming back with a plastic bag full of CDs. And it was like, so these are the CDs that I have now until, I don't know, until I'm going to buy a new CD.

And the Pointer Sisters was in that bag. And I remember listening to a little bit of it as a kid and it didn't grab me when I was a young person. But then as an adult later in life, the visceral memory comes back. I remember being in a bar and someone put this on the jukebox and having the recognition of like, I know this song. How do I know this song? And putting together that it was the Pointer Sisters and it was on that CD. And once I was older, I was like, this is...

the greatest. I mean, it like hit completely different as a little kid. I thought it was weird and I didn't like it. And probably because it came in that big plastic bag. I was like, I don't want that CD. And now I'm like, gosh, I really wish I would have kept that CD because that song is so incredible. And yeah, putting it on. There's something about hearing it too, in like a public place, like hearing it in a bar or somewhere the like, it just makes people feel so good. It's such a great feel good song.

Chad (13:56.78)
Yeah

Chad (14:02.217)
it totally is. What do you think the phenomenon is around certain songs hitting differently out in public? Cause like I was having a conversation with someone on a previous episode about like grocery store jams. Like I've been doing a lot of go to stop and shop, which is the big grocery store by me and just walking around and like sometimes I'll hear a song and I'm like, my God. Like, and it just, it just hits a different way. And I don't know why.

Katrina Prow (14:09.694)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (14:13.79)
for them.

Katrina Prow (14:25.854)
Yeah, I joke now that all my favorite music plays at Petco on the pet store. I don't know what it is. Whoever I think I made that tweet once, like whoever the DJ is at Petco, like, please, I want your playlist like the Petco jams are so good. But I think I think it might have something to do with like, there's the private enjoyment of a song. But then sometimes when you're in public and you hear it and there's a

that moment, that shared moment of community of like, my God, do you love this song too? Cause that did happen to me in a Target recently, White Towns, Your Woman was playing and I was fully just dancing in the aisle. And I know that someone saw like, we had this moment of shared recognition of like, this is a banger. And like we both, I just stayed in Target cause I was like, I want to hear the whole.

Chad (15:06.38)
man, yeah.

Chad (15:13.58)
You

Katrina Prow (15:21.406)
song. So I think for me, and I mean, that's happened to me in Petco, they're always playing Matchbox 20. And I'm like, God, the song and like having that moment that like shared recognition sometimes with other people of like, you like this song too? I love this song too. And I mean, that's what happened when Automatic played at that bar. I remember saying like, you know this song and someone was like, yes, you know this song and you have that, that moment like that exchange and that love.

Chad (15:44.395)
Alright.

Katrina Prow (15:50.878)
I don't know, it's like waving, right? It's like two people winking at each other, like you're in on the joke. Yeah, I love it. I mean, it's the best.

Chad (15:55.596)
Yeah, it took a secret handshake. Yeah, totally.

Yeah, I used to go to a bar in Margate, New Jersey called Red's and I was probably not quite legal yet. didn't have a fake ID, but I used to be able to get in sometimes. And I remember on the jukebox, I had a great jukebox, but they sort of had this back room where it was jukebox driven and then they would have live bands in the other room. And there was like the sort of room between where there was like pool tables and some stools and stuff. So it was kind of like, you can either go listen to the band or DJ if there was no band going on, or you could hang out in the back room and just sit

at the back bar and they had the jukebox going and they had the Clash song, Train in Vain on the jukebox. And I didn't really, I mean, I knew it. I had heard it probably as a kid or a teenager because it was sort of in my, my era, but it just never really stood out to me because to me, the Clash was more about the political songs and the, you know, the, the, you know, the anarchy kind of stuff. And so the song comes on and this bar and everybody in the bar starts singing along with it. And it was one of those moments.

Katrina Prow (16:34.75)
great song. This is a great song.

Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (16:47.262)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (16:59.596)
where I was like, my God, like, you know, same thing, like, you know, the song, it's like a deep cut. Yeah, I know that song, you know.

Katrina Prow (17:01.694)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, we're all like in this, gosh, it feels like a really human experience to like be recognizing and like feeling the same exact feelings as somebody else at the same exact time. Like that's like such a crazy, I don't know, that's magic to me. And so that's part of what makes music so intoxicating and like, you know, live musics. I think this is why people are willing to pay so much money to go to a show because you get to have that like,

Chad (17:23.913)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (17:34.782)
that experience, that really magical experience of like, whoa, we are all losing our mind at the same exact time, that like shared experience of community. Yeah.

Chad (17:45.704)
Yeah, for sure.

So the magic of music, nice segue, really kind of comes through in your writing. So you had sent me links to a few essays that you wanted me to check out prior to recording together. So I did. I read the one about Black IPs and T 'PAL, which we have to talk about. And of course, you know, again, we'll get into Fiona in a bit, but talk to me about the Black IPs essay. I have a funny story about them, but I want to hear like how you were driven to write that and sort of what made you go there. You know, that specific band and that specific

Katrina Prow (17:49.726)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (18:02.302)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (18:09.022)
Yeah.

Chad (18:17.211)
time.

Katrina Prow (18:18.238)
Yeah, I was really excited to write that essay and I'm a part of like one of some of the writers who every year write for this publication called March X -ness and they take on a theme or a genre of music and do like a March Madness style competition. And so this last year it was 2000s dance music and the...

One of the editors, Andrew Monson, who's a fantastic writer and editor, and he also edits for the Literary Journal Diagram. He's often, you know, crowdsourcing for things. And when he asks, like, what are your, what are some of your memorable 2000s dance music? Well, it's like, I could list so many, but the Black Eyed Peas and Fergie has to be represented. I like, I felt very passionate that if we exclude

Fergie or the Black Eyed Peas, we are not doing our job, right? And so that song particularly, Ander was kind of like, I hate my humps. And I'm like, I get it. Like most people really hate that song, but we would just be remiss. Like we have to include it. It's got to be a part of the competition this year. And so I was really excited to write about it. I've been a long time Fergie fan.

I remember watching Fergie on my TV when I was a really, really young girl watching Kids Incorporated. And to me, she's just always been a star. I've always been like, gosh, I want to be like that girl. And so getting to follow her career a little bit when she came back out on the scene with Black Eyed Peas, which today, of course, that music, it's a little embarrassing, but it's just so of the time.

Chad (19:45.736)
Right, right.

Chad (20:07.944)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (20:08.606)
Black Eyed Peas and Fergie just couldn't really exist right now. Like it's so 2000s. And so I knew that I was gonna write about it. And he does a lottery. This year I didn't get picked for the lottery, but I still wrote him. And I was like, I have to write about this song. Like if you don't let me write about this song, I'm like gonna come find like, you must let me write about this song. And so I was really proud of that. Really, really proud of that essay. I got to like layer in a few things that I...

I really wanted to write about and one of them is the experience of working in hospitality when you're a young adult and especially when you're on the West Coast. I was in Long Beach, but you, I mean, for all I knew I was in Hollywood and I was gonna be a star and like this idea of being on stage, which is a waiting tables term and.

sort of looking at Fergie's career, like to me I could see the essay coming together. I was like, this is about waiting tables. This is about wanting to be a star. This is about, like, how desperate will you be to get to the top? This is also about being a little cheesy and corny and embarrassing. Like, so I had a blast writing that essay and I also learned a lot. I did a ton of research, which is fun research, which is the best part about being a writer is when I say research, it's like,

I just watched documentaries about the Black Eyed Peas. I was like Googling Will .i .am every day, like, you know, reading all of these early 2000s articles and interviews with Fergie. And so I just had, that was probably the most fun writing experience that I had like to date because it was like a time capsule. I got to go back in time and.

you know, reached out to a bunch of old friends and was like, wait, did you have true religion jeans? Like what were the jeans we were wearing? Like, I have to get this detail right. What was the name of that gay club? I don't remember. I don't have any photos, but it had a picnic table outside. And so, you know, it was a lot of fun. It was, it was a blast to write that one.

Chad (22:02.888)
Alright.

Chad (22:17.224)
Yeah, it comes through in the writing and I love the detail and how much fun is it to research something that you love, right? Or that you lived. I mean, it doesn't seem like work when you're doing it. So yeah, love that.

Katrina Prow (22:26.878)
Yeah. Finding, finding photos was, was the hardest part because even though we were online at that time and I was online at that time, everything was on my space, which is now I was just having this conversation with somebody, right? Like rest in peace. I deleted that my space account probably in like 2005, 2006, and I never looked back. But because of that, a lot of pictures and I mean, I just don't think we were like good about

Keeping things, like I have no pictures, I have like hardly any sort of like photographic or like documented evidence of that time. So I had to do a lot of crowd sourcing with some former coworkers. Luckily somebody was like, I have some disposable camera photos that I can take a picture of and send you. And I was like, yes, that's what I'm looking for, you know? Because it was pre -Facebook.

Chad (22:58.568)
Yeah.

Chad (23:16.808)
Ha ha ha ha.

Katrina Prow (23:23.39)
It was like right in that weird middle area when we were all on MySpace, but then like MySpace was also not cool anymore. And you know, no, our phones, I was, someone was like, what phone did you have? I was like, I don't know, like a razor. Like I was, yeah, a flip phone. I was like, not a phone that I have images. Like no, I have no way of getting that phone. I just, but it was fun. It was, you know, like a little bit of a puzzle to go back in time and figure it all out.

Chad (23:30.217)
Right.

Chad (23:38.12)
A flip phone, yeah.

Chad (23:53.545)
Yeah, I have this sort of time.

warp, if you will, between like my early to mid twenties, early into mid twenties that I don't have documentation of either because it was sort of like after I stopped taking pictures with like a point and shoot, you know, whatever Kodak camera, whatever that I had when I was like a kid and a teenager. And then it picks up again. Once I got my first digital camera, probably when I was like 29 or 30. So from like 21 to like 27 or 28, it's like a black hole. And I was talking to my mom and

Katrina Prow (24:11.326)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (24:25.15)
you

Chad (24:28.106)
She's got photo albums and like a bucket full of just loose pictures and I'm like, all right, next time I come visit, I'm just gonna spend a couple hours going through and stealing a bunch of pictures or just, you know, scanning them with my phone, whatever, because like I'm just missing this whole section of my youth. Like, at least, I mean, you know, I had the memories, but like the documentation's just not there, like you said, sort of like the same, but like in a different way, but it's just really weird to think about it that way.

Katrina Prow (24:41.246)
Right.

Katrina Prow (24:50.558)
Right. And I have this memory of digital cameras being really flawed. Like they would last, I don't know, maybe a couple of months and then something would happen and your digital camera would die or the little disk would get broken. So actually some of the pictures I found were because an old coworker I was Facebook friends with and they had an album called Digital Camera Rebirth. It was like a digital camera that they had like unearthed.

Chad (24:55.172)
yeah.

Katrina Prow (25:19.262)
and were able to get the photos off. And I was like, this was about the same time. Like, I can use these. But yeah, my digital cameras, who knows, long gone. But I know I was taking photos on them, who knows? Or as I like to say, I don't need to know where those photos are. Thank God the MySpace is gone. We don't need that proof in the world. People don't need to know that. Yeah, right.

Chad (25:21.034)
well.

Chad (25:29.481)
Ha ha ha.

Chad (25:36.393)
Ha ha ha ha.

Chad (25:41.545)
Yeah. Yeah. Careful what you wish for. So let's talk about speaking of lost things, lost a time. so you did a fantastic essay on a song that I don't think many people know. And that song is heart and soul by to pow.

why don't you tell the audience how you kind of discovered that song because that's a great story in and of itself. And then, you know, take us through that essay and how that came to be. And I love how you tied it back to ballet and teaching. Like it's just a great sort of tie in.

Katrina Prow (26:05.342)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (26:13.918)
Yeah. So, a little later than like the Black Eyed Peas essay in terms of like times in my life. Black Eyed Peas was like 2005, 2006. later on, and I remember I was in grad school, I was getting my MFA and I had a roommate at the time. and you know, this is kind of, this is probably like Kazaa, Limewire, Burning, CD Times. I'm like trying to think of like what era of music we are.

I think people were buying music on iTunes, but like not all the time. Like people were still burning, burning CDs if they could and if they wanted to. And so my roommate and I at the time, we were probably, you know, mid to late, mid twenties, I'm going to guess. And every night when we would go out to the bars in Long Beach, we would go cruising down Fourth Street and hit up all the bars. Getting ready, we would listen to one of her mixed CDs.

And my roommate at the time was really had a gift for this like she created the most amazing CDs So I can't take credit for finding the song because I know my roommate, you know Shout out to Blake somehow had this song on a mixed CD And you know the first time I heard it I did have one of those moments where I was like, whoa What's this? This song is kind of crazy but amazing and I knew it was 80s But I never remembered it listening to it in at that

Like I don't remember listening to it as a little girl. And then somehow the song like it does with roommates sharing everything. Maybe the mixed CD became my CD or maybe I downloaded the song and it ended up on one of my CDs. But at the time, one of my many jobs in my hustle was teaching ballet to gymnasts. And I'm classically a hustler who always has two to three to four jobs. Who knows? I'll find a way to pay the rent.

And so one of my jobs at the time was teaching dance to little gymnasts and I had it set in my head that I was going to be the cool teacher. Like we weren't going to listen to classical music. We were going to listen to music that I liked. And so that meant at some time in my life, I was teaching all these 10 year olds ballet bar, you know, we're doing like plies and tendus and all that too.

Chad (28:21.513)
you

Katrina Prow (28:36.606)
this old song from the 80s by T 'Pau called Heart and Soul. And it kind of became a bit of a mantra for me. That was, I had just graduated with my MFA. It was 2008. No, it was 2010. And, you know, there's no, I didn't realize this at the time, but there's no job really for English majors or for creative writers. I just assumed I was gonna get a teaching job right away.

But that did not happen for me. And so to me, the song is about, you know, working hard and persevering, even though these sort of goals and dreams that you have in your minds are falling apart right in front of you. I think after I got my MFA, I kind of felt like my life was going to start and it didn't, you know? And so then after I got my PhD, there was a little bit of that too, where it was like, okay, now life is starting and

it still felt like setbacks and, you know, what are you gonna do with this degree and how are you gonna support yourself as a writer and an artist? And so even though the song, it has nothing to do with that. It's about like a relationship. It's like totally wrapped up in this other stuff. But when I hear it, it's like, just keep going, persevere, you know, like at the time. Yeah, I mean, when I look back at it, I'm like, man, I...

Chad (29:55.304)
Throw your heart and soul into it, right? Yeah, I get it.

Katrina Prow (29:59.838)
miserable at that time, but you couldn't tell me. I mean, I thought I was like living my best life out here teaching ballet to these gymnasts. But again, same, it was the same publication, March X -ness. Their theme was 80s one hit wonders. And that was one of the songs on the list. And I reached out to Ander Monson and I was like, I have like the best story about heart and soul. Like I have to write about the song and

Chad (30:01.448)
Ha ha ha.

Katrina Prow (30:27.678)
Luckily, he let me and so, you know, as long as as long as he'll let me write essays about music, I will keep doing this because they're just a blast to sort of put together.

Chad (30:38.247)
Yeah, I hope you do. I'd love to keep reading them. I really enjoyed those two. What struck me too is that I had no idea. I mean, I probably should have figured this out at some point, but I just didn't realize that T 'PAL kept recording all these years. I mean, apparently, like up till just recently, they keep putting albums out. Didn't even listen to the whole album in 87 when it came out. I just remember, I think I saw the video. I was a big MTV kid. So like I was always watching videos and, you know, that's how I discovered a lot of music. And I remember seeing the

Katrina Prow (30:39.838)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (30:51.198)
yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (30:59.838)
Right.

Katrina Prow (31:03.454)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (31:08.201)
video for that and thinking, wow, such a cool song. Such a weird music video, by the way. It's just like really spacey and ethereal. But yeah, I just that song, you know, to this day, I hear it and I'm like, this is such a good song.

Katrina Prow (31:13.566)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (31:23.806)
Right? I listened to a lot of the stuff and I think that's like the hard part sometimes about writing about these artists is because you don't want to say anything negative, right? But I listened to all of the discography during my research and I was like, well, okay, well, Heart and Soul really was like, that was the hit. Like there wasn't, it's hard to see how any of that other, it's hard to see how it might've fit, but you know, like you never have a way of knowing. I mean, I wrote about that with.

with the Fergie essay too. Like she was in that group, Wild Orchid, for 13 years and they were trying to make it for 13 years and they toured, they did all the right stuff. I mean, I don't remember it at the time, but they were on WB shows and they were touring with InSync, I think. And it just, they never crossed over. And then it was like Fergie on her own became this mega star. So you just, you never really know what people are gonna...

Chad (31:57.064)
Yeah, that's right.

Chad (32:12.392)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (32:20.19)
you know, resonate to. But yeah, I felt I, I did feel bad writing that part of the essay because I was like, well, yeah, they kept recording and you know, it would suck to be pigeonholed as a one hit wonder. Like I could see how as an artist that would be, you're probably so grateful that that one song hit, but then after a while you're like, I'm still recording, I'm doing other stuff. You know, I could see how that was a bummer for her.

Chad (32:43.689)
totally. And I feel like there's two different ways that bands and artists tend to go with being pigeonholed as a one hit wonder. Either they don't accept it and they just like, won't play the song live that sort of launched their career, or they embrace it and they're like, okay, you know, people want to hear it. It's, it's, you know, even if I only had one hit, people still want to hear it in 2024, I'm going to play it and I'm going to enjoy it. You know, I don't know. Like, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I'm not sure how I would feel about it if I were an artist in that situation.

Katrina Prow (32:56.542)
Right.

Katrina Prow (33:13.726)
Yeah, it had another resurgence because it was in that Black Mirror episode that people love. It was in San Junipero. And so all the music from that episode, people like found again and loved it. And so again, when I was doing research, I saw that it charted again. And I can't remember what year that Black Mirror episode came out, but it was after I heard it on the CD in like 2010. And so again, I mean, that's got to feel cool, right? I think about Kate Bush and how like running up that

Chad (33:18.792)
right. Yes.

Katrina Prow (33:43.486)
Hill. Like, yeah, like, I mean, that has got to be the coolest experience ever when like people find your music again after years and years and years and years and years. But yeah, I didn't love any of their new stuff, unfortunately.

Chad (33:43.512)
yeah, stranger things, yeah.

Chad (33:56.817)
I would love to talk to maybe I'll pitch somebody for a future podcast episode, but there are certain shows that just have amazing, amazing music and the music supervisors for these shows are just like, I want them to make me a playlist. They're just so unreal. I just recently started sort of rediscovering the show Homicide Life on the Streets. I don't know if you're familiar.

Katrina Prow (34:12.542)
yeah.

Katrina Prow (34:23.742)
heard it. I never saw it. Yeah.

Chad (34:25.096)
Yeah. Well, it's not available anywhere. I mean, you could find it, you know, sort of a Kazan Napster style if you really want to. But, why it kind of came back around again, as I saw a headline that, I guess the, I think it was NBC that, that owned the rights. They were trying to get it published for streaming for years, but they couldn't because they couldn't get music clearances because every episode had just fantastic music in it. And it was one of the first

Katrina Prow (34:48.318)
the music.

Chad (34:55.05)
that I remember watching. I only remember when it was out, I guess the mid 90s.

Katrina Prow (34:59.358)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (35:00.392)
where every week I was like, I can't wait to see what music they put on this week. You know what I mean? It was just like it was in the show was great without the music. Look at me wrong. But that was a big highlight for me. And it was sort of my first exposure to like, well, somebody's job is to to watch this, watch the dailies, watch the show as there are, you know, watch the edit and then be like, OK, this song would be perfect for this scene. I discovered so much cool music that way. I remember there's a song by Belly.

Katrina Prow (35:04.094)
Right. Yeah.

Katrina Prow (35:15.006)
Greatest job.

Katrina Prow (35:22.046)
Right.

Chad (35:28.585)
can't remember the name of the song right now, but it's escaping me. And there's a song by, I think her name's Larger Mono called The Darkest Night. It's another super depressing song that like you don't want to put on if you're not in the mood for it. And that was like in the end of an episode and it sort of played over this really depressing sort of outro. It was just like, wow, like I didn't know music could do this in a series. So yeah.

Katrina Prow (35:41.918)
Right.

Katrina Prow (35:53.406)
Right. Insecure, that was the last great show with had great music for me. The music producer was Rafael Sedic and I think Solange Knowles even worked on that show. So like, I remember watching Insecure on HBO and just shazaming every song. I mean, I would have to watch it twice. I would watch it once to watch it and then watch it again. So I could like, okay, let's build a playlist. I want all these songs because they're just so, so, so good.

Chad (36:03.464)
wow.

Katrina Prow (36:23.294)
But yeah, no, the greatest job ever. I would love that job. Put music to a TV show. That would be awesome.

Chad (36:27.72)
me too. There's a website by the way, called TuneFind, I think it's called, and you can punch in any TV show or movie and it will spit out a list of all the songs that are in it. And it's like 80 % accurate. You know, a lot of times it's pretty good. Yeah, I found a lot that way. Another show, have you ever watched a show called Lodge 49?

Katrina Prow (36:34.814)
Mmm.

Katrina Prow (36:43.814)
that's awesome.

Katrina Prow (36:50.174)
No, no, I'm gonna end that.

Chad (36:52.975)
I don't know how to describe it. It's sort of like this metaphysical, almost surrealist sort of show that focuses around these characters. And they're actually, I think, in Long Beach, I want to say, or they're in that area. Yeah. And the main character's name is Dud. And he's kind of like your classic

Katrina Prow (37:08.51)
cool.

Chad (37:17.217)
surfer loser ish kind of guy like no direction in life. But I won't say a whole lot because I don't want to spoil it in case you want to watch it. I think it's on AMC. But that was another that was the last one I watched that I just had to go back after every episode and figure out what the music was. And I made like this huge playlist of all the songs for myself because it was just like unreal.

Katrina Prow (37:24.094)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's the best. And then it's like you're revisiting the material when you're listening to the playlist. Like, I don't know, I geek out on that kind of stuff. And a lot of writers for their novels put together playlists that like compliment the book. And I know when I was finishing my novel, I mean, it's kind of lame because my novel still lives on my computer right now. But I have a total playlist that I'm like, if and when this book gets out, like, here's the music that goes with every

Chad (37:50.166)
yeah.

Katrina Prow (38:06.462)
scene. So, you know, future goals. If it becomes a series, I'm doing the music. I already know like what I have it all synced up. Yeah.

Chad (38:13.001)
You heard it here first on the Aural Mess podcast. So let's talk about Fiona Apple because that's sort of how we first connected.

Katrina Prow (38:17.758)
Yep, there we go.

Chad (38:26.792)
Chiara who was kind enough to connect us and she just couldn't say enough good things about you and what a great guest you would be on for the podcast and she mentioned the whole Fiona Apple connection so I guess talk to me about that and you know again another great essay that that you sort of went through each album and related it back to your life and I'd love to hear how that came about.

Katrina Prow (38:36.894)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (38:48.318)
Yeah, Alex Sciara, by the way, is a former student of mine who has become a friend. So I just would like to say, like, what a lovely, a lovely, talented human who's also a great writer. And then, yeah, she was one of my first, she was the first class of writers that I ever had and now I'm fortunate that we can be friends. But so the Fiona Apple, I've been like a lifetime.

Chad (38:52.616)
Okay.

Katrina Prow (39:16.286)
fan of Fiona Apple, I would say of all the like fandoms of the artists, I feel, I mean, Fiona Apple doesn't, they don't have like a name, you know, like the Nicki Minaj fans do, but that's like one artist that I'm like, I'm gonna ride with this person like forever. I've loved every album and something

about her that I feel like is different from other artists that I've loved is it feels like we've almost grown up together. We're roughly the same, same -ish age. I think she's maybe five years older than me. And with every album that came out, it felt so perfectly timed with moments of my life. Like when I think of TIDAL, that album to me just captures like adolescence. And I don't think anybody was...

really writing music about girlhood at the time. Like that was sort of the first young woman who was writing about being a young woman. And so that blew my mind as a young person to like, you know, have someone writing about girlhood while I'm experiencing girlhood. So the music resonated incredibly. But I decided to write that essay because

Chad (40:11.721)
Right? Sure.

Katrina Prow (40:37.406)
As we know, Fiona Apple released vegetable cutters when we were, I think, like one month into quarantine. And the day that she was releasing it was the day that I was moving out of my apartment in Long Beach. I had kind of decided that I wasn't gonna ride out quarantine in my home. I had kind of gotten emails that I was being let go from both my teaching jobs.

Chad (40:42.825)
Yes.

Katrina Prow (41:02.878)
I also found out that the restaurant that I was working at was closing indefinitely. And so I was in like a crucial decision where I just had to decide like, and none of us knew, we had no way of knowing what was gonna happen with the pandemic, but I decided that I would just like move home with my parents. And on the day that I was moving out, I heard the news that she was releasing this album. And so I was like, I can't believe the timing of this because every album that she's released,

has sort of come with these major life transitions, which just makes me, I mean, an even bigger fan of hers, right? Because it's like she's releasing music during her major life transitions that are somehow mirroring my own life transitions. And so it's almost like ripping out a page of my diary, you know? And so I listened to the album the whole, it's not a long drive, but I had like a three and a half hour drive up the coast, back to the central coast.

Chad (41:39.561)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (42:00.222)
and I just listened to the album on repeat. And when I pulled into my parents driveway, I remember my mom and dad were like, come on, like get out of the car. And I was like, no, I have to write. I think I have to write something down. Like I just, I felt this, you know, this feeling and I don't get it all the time where I was like, I better sit down and like write this out. And then when I was thinking about it, I was like, well, the idler wheel came out.

when I moved to Texas for my PhD. And I was like, well, hold on, let me think about this. And I wrote another little bit. And then I was like, an extraordinary machine came out when I was living in the dorms. And I was like, let me write a little bit. And just like going back and then before I knew it, I had what we call a lyric essay. I had each little moment. And I was like, OK, well, I think this is an essay. And I was fortunate that Off Assignment, which frequently publishes

publishes writers on other like artistic mediums. So they have this whole section called Under the Influence, which is writers on art or music or film or other writers. And they published it for me. And so I'm really proud of that one too. And so these music essays have kind of just been happening really organically, but I'm hopeful because I also am working on an essay on X factor right now with Lauren Hill. And so

I'm thinking that I might be able to string these together for like a future collection. But yeah, the Fiona Apple one, it just, it happened really organically. And of course it was all due to the way she really fetched the bolt cutters and, you know, in quarantine and all that.

Chad (43:32.457)
Yeah.

Chad (43:45.609)
Yeah, I remember seeing the announcement that it was out and I was like, wow. and you know, of course, like you said, we're all home and you know, I was probably.

not doing a whole lot. You know, just like we were all I think in April of 2020, we were all you know, I mean, it was very scary. Obviously, I don't want to minimize any anything bad that happened. But at the same time, I think we were all kind of like, okay, now what like we didn't know what was going to happen. We were still sort of waiting to see but I think we were all just trying to find ways to entertain ourselves and stay sane, you know, with with being quarantined. And I remember

Katrina Prow (43:56.862)
Right.

Katrina Prow (44:04.478)
right?

Katrina Prow (44:17.534)
Yeah.

Chad (44:19.786)
My daughter's not a big Fiona Apple fan, nor is my wife, but I remember listening to that album when it came out with headphones on, like in the dark. I don't remember why I did that, but I did. And I listened to it like two or three times through, I think.

Katrina Prow (44:29.758)
Yeah.

Chad (44:35.786)
And I haven't listened to it really since. I mean, I've heard a couple of tracks come up here and there and things on playlists. But I remember when I first came across Fiona Apple, it's when Tidal came out. And by the way, you mentioned in your essay Tidal as a homonym for T -I -T -L -E, Tidal. And I never put that together. I never made that connection until I read it. And I was like, yeah, it makes sense.

Katrina Prow (44:52.958)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (44:58.366)
I don't know if that's true, but I was 12 and I was like, it's like title. And then I'm like, no, I don't even, I have no clue. But a lot of that was, you know, I misheard so many lyrics as a young person. And then, you know, I joked that like between Fiona Apple and Mariah Carey, like my dictionary, I was just in the dictionary. Like, what are these words? I mean,

Chad (45:03.497)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (45:25.406)
that people debate the Mariah Carey, but I'm like, no, listen to her lyrics. Mariah Carey was using, you know, a hundred dollar words in every lyric, but so was Fiona Apple. And as a young person who didn't know that I was going to become a writer, I mean, I've always loved words and her lyrics. I was like, this is genius. She's so smart. Nobody was writing, no pop stars or no, you know, young person on the radio was writing their own music and was writing music like that in the nineties. Like,

Chad (45:33.257)
Yeah.

Chad (45:50.541)
Ha ha

No, yeah, certainly not. And she was 17 when she wrote her first album, which is even more amazing. And it came out, I think, two years later, right? When she was 19, I think is when it was released. But I remember seeing the video and it was a little disturbing because it felt like it just felt like, I don't know, I don't want to say dirty, but it felt like uncomfortable to watch, right? Because she was like this waif and seemed like she could be underage and she's in all these like situations.

Katrina Prow (45:55.934)
No. I know.

Right?

Katrina Prow (46:04.862)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (46:19.102)
Yeah.

Chad (46:24.061)
what I mean, and the bathtub and it was just like weird, but it made you pay attention. Like it totally caught your eye and the song was everywhere. I mean, I remember that song just being on the radio and you know, all over. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Katrina Prow (46:24.318)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (46:28.862)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (46:36.414)
Yeah, the criminal music video, right? That's the one you're talking about. Yeah. And I think that's where she got a lot. She got a lot of hate from that. And the, you know, I don't know, the urban legend or the legend of it all is that she had written that whole album, you know, at 17 and given it to people. And they were like, well, there's it's a beautiful album, but there's no single. Like we don't we don't have anything for the radio. And so they asked her to write a radio song. And I think she wrote

Chad (46:58.794)
Wow.

Katrina Prow (47:06.078)
Criminal in like five to 10 minutes. She wrote it really quickly and she was like, all right, I'll give you a song for the radio. And I think like knowingly like went into it a little bit. It was like, you want something for the radio? Like you want to sell me? Like I'll give you some sex. Like I'll give you something that'll sell. And then, you know, Criminal was that crazy hit that it was, but that was not one of the original songs that was supposed to be out there.

Chad (47:24.714)
Right.

Katrina Prow (47:34.27)
that I was thinking today and I was doing a little bit of research today about like where that sort of negative reaction to Fiona Apple comes from. I mean, certainly the VMA speech where, you know, she says, this world is bullshit. But I think it was also that that spin article that came out, the spin article really kind of slammed her for, you know, rereading it today. I was like, I don't really think it's that bad, but it's

Chad (47:46.378)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (48:02.686)
It's two things that we still maybe weren't really empathetic or sensitive about yet in the 90s, which was like her being a girl, but her also just being young. Like I look at that whole thing and I'm like, that sounds like a 19 year old. I spend a lot of time with 19 year olds teaching. This sounds like a 19 year old and it sounds like we all just got mad at her because she was very opinionated at 19.

Chad (48:15.754)
Right.

Chad (48:21.066)
Yes.

Katrina Prow (48:31.358)
And so it's funny, because I think of like, you know, the Olivia Rodrigo's today, like the people today. And if a similar piece came out about that artist today in 2024, we would all, I mean, we did, right? We loved Olivia Rodrigo for being kind of like pushing the envelope and, you know, being a little like mouthy and sour. I mean, her album was called Sour, right? So like we celebrated it then.

Chad (48:48.682)
Yeah.

Chad (48:55.21)
Right. Sour girl. Yeah.

Katrina Prow (48:57.534)
Exactly, that idea of a sour girl. But with Fiona, it was just the 90s. And so people were like, she's a brat. I was thinking about that too. She got called a brat all the time. And now we have Brat Summer. I mean, that Charlie XCX album is the biggest thing. And everybody is like, I'm in my full brat summer. And I was thinking about Fiona. I'm like, you just, it was a little too early. They weren't ready for it. Wrong timing.

Chad (49:07.754)
I remember that and it was this.

Chad (49:20.554)
Wrong time. Yeah. Yeah. She was way ahead of her time.

Katrina Prow (49:25.31)
today, criminal would be, people would lose their shit if criminal came out today, like they would lose it. Yes, yeah.

Chad (49:29.482)
God. Yeah. It would be a tick tock anthem. I mean, come on. Well, it's bullshit, right? Because it's like the typical double standard in the 90s, especially you have all these sensitive grunge men coming out and saying the world's bullshit. But then, you know, a young woman does it and then they call her a brat and they write her off and get mad at her. So it's just like, come on. But yeah, I think she was just, you know, too, too soon. Unfortunately.

Katrina Prow (49:47.23)
Right.

Katrina Prow (49:51.006)
Right. Right.

Katrina Prow (49:56.734)
Yeah, and just, she was so on that album when you listen to it. I mean, she doesn't sound like a 19 year old. She sounds so confident and self -assured. And I could see how that kind of personality would be really off -putting to people. Here's this really young person who's so sure of themselves and so confident and thinks, you know.

Chad (50:09.61)
yeah.

Katrina Prow (50:22.174)
like thinks they know everything and she's kind of been unwavering in that. Like she stayed exactly the same. She hasn't changed much, but I think for her just to be so young, if people were like, no, no, no way. I don't think so. Yeah. So.

Chad (50:34.666)
Taking it back. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. What's the song on title? I can't think of the name of it, but the lyrics are I lie in an early bed thinking late thoughts, I think is the, the opening line. The first mistake or something, I think it's called. Yeah. That, that song, I think.

Katrina Prow (50:47.582)
Yeah. that is... Yeah. Yeah. No, the first taste. The first taste. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (50:57.322)
first taste, that's it, the first taste. That song just grabbed me when it came out and you know when I first heard the whole album because again it doesn't sound like a 17 year old writing that. It's such a mature song not only in subject matter but like the lyrics and the interplay of all the different parts and the pieces. I mean it's not like anything we'd heard before right? I mean on a pop album.

Katrina Prow (51:19.774)
Right. Right. And she was so jazzy too, you know, her early influences were Billie Holiday and Nina Simone. And again, like, I don't think anybody was expecting a 19 year old, like white girl to sound like that. Like she sounded, for me, Shadow Boxer was the first song that I really loved and she does not sound like a 19 year old. Like that sounds like a mature.

Chad (51:24.394)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (51:44.99)
woman who's like been through some stuff and then you're like, no, this is just like and her playing the piano like the whole thing. I mean, there just wasn't anyone who sounded like her on the radio. And at the time I was a pretty serious dancer. I was a, you know, did a lot of ballet. I trained really classically and for a long part of my life, like dance was the thing that was going to be my thing. That's what I thought I was going to do.

Chad (51:48.234)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Katrina Prow (52:12.862)
And I loved that music because I felt like I could really, I could dance to it in a different way than Paula Abdul. And there was substance and every time I heard that album, it felt like an album to dance to. I mean, yeah, she, I mean, it just really, it blew my mind. And she just continued with each album, I would say. I keep thinking, it's not gonna get better. Like she's not.

Chad (52:27.785)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (52:41.438)
It's not like she's completely changed, but each album is sort of adding on to like who she is and her, how could I say this, like her discography, like everything she's doing is in line with who she is. She stayed so true to who she is, but nothing feels like a repeat. Like everything has felt so fresh and so new, but still so incredibly in line with who she wants to be and what she wants to do as an artist.

Chad (53:08.969)
Yeah, for sure. And then I think she goes from sullen girl persona on the first album to being a little pissed off on on when the pawn I feel like that was a very angry album. And that's my favorite album. And it's one of my favorite albums period. I can listen to every song on that and never get sick of any of them. I think the first song that I heard from it probably was

Katrina Prow (53:19.23)
Right.

Katrina Prow (53:22.718)
Me too.

Chad (53:37.961)
Fast as you can, sorry, I drew a blank on the title there for a second. I'm getting bad with titles, I'm getting old. Fast as you can, I guess, because it was on the radio or it was just, you know, it was everywhere. And I was like, wow, it's such a weird song, the instrumentation, the rhythm. It's a 4 -4 rhythmic pattern.

Katrina Prow (53:39.87)
Yeah.

Hahaha.

Chad (54:00.521)
but it doesn't sound like it. Like you almost think they're playing in some odd time signature because of the way the drums and the piano sort of cross over that fourth measure, the fourth beat in the measure. And then mid song, it just crashes into this six, eight time sort of bridge, right? That sort of like, doesn't make any sense at first.

Katrina Prow (54:06.398)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (54:18.814)
Yeah.

Chad (54:21.417)
On subsequent listens, it really, it really works. And to me, it's very reminiscent of like how Steely Dan does a mental eight section or a bridge, right? It's, it's like this whole other piece of music that could stand alone. and, but it fits, it fits the song and it's, it's just genius.

Katrina Prow (54:24.862)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (54:31.55)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (54:39.806)
Yeah, I love that song too. That, I mean, there was a music video for that one too on MTV. So they did try to make it like, you know, a single. I don't think it charted the way any of her music did. I think at that point they realized like this artist is not really gonna be charting the same way. But that song, and I agree with you, that album to me, I think that's her best work. And she was rightfully pissed off. Yeah, cause everyone was calling her a brat and an asshole. And you know, she was...

Chad (55:07.401)
Right.

Katrina Prow (55:08.894)
doing all these interviews where people were asking her, I heard you got raped. And I mean, I would be mad too. So I think she like came out and was like, yeah, fuck you guys. Here's some anger. And I mean, anger, writing with anger, man, that fuels you right there, you know? Which is, I tell my students all the time, like, why don't we see happy stories? Well, because when you feel like happy and joyous, like,

Chad (55:16.745)
Yeah, yeah.

Hahaha

Katrina Prow (55:35.806)
You don't often think about penning a masterpiece, but when you're pissed off and you're sad and you're feeling nostalgic, that's when it's gonna come out. But yeah, Fast As You Can, to me, is, I mean, that's like her magnum opus. That's her best song, that's her best work. And I'm just like you, I could listen to that one on repeat, never get sick of it. That's like Desert Island songs would be Fast As You Can. It's incredible.

Chad (55:43.309)
Yeah

Chad (56:00.778)
Yeah, totally. And I know is my other Desert Island song from that record and man, I feel bad for the guy that was written about because she just takes his ass apart piece by piece.

Katrina Prow (56:05.534)
yeah.

Katrina Prow (56:12.766)
Yeah, yeah. But it's like surprising. I mean, it's not really happy, but the ending of that has this like hopeful thing. And it's at the end of the album. And that's like, she's quoted in that spin article saying like, I'm actually a really hopeful person, but people don't often see it because, you know, I'll get angry about stuff.

Chad (56:22.601)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (56:38.526)
I was thinking about that song when I read that today because I was like, man, that song I know just kind of does a 180 on us. And like, even though she rips him apart, it's almost like hopeful and feels kind of nice at the end. I mean, I don't know. I love that song too. My favorite on that album is The Way Things Are. That's a song that people don't really talk about that much, but...

Chad (56:59.145)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (57:02.11)
damn that song and you know when that album was released I was in high school and you know all the feelings of being a teenager and being uncomfortable and you know feeling weird and like you don't fit in and that song really resonated with me again as like a young woman I just thought whoa she's just like speaking to my experience as a young person on this earth who feels like they don't fit in like what a great great song.

Chad (57:31.914)
Yeah, definitely. So the other two albums that I kind of skipped over, to be honest, Idler's We, Idler Wheel and what was the other one?

Katrina Prow (57:40.894)
Mm -hmm. Extraordinary machine.

Chad (57:44.33)
Extraordinary Machine. That's the one that didn't get released and had to be re -recorded or the record company didn't like it and she redid some of it. But you can find, I think at some point I went and found the original version online. It was pretty widely available to listen to. It's not that I didn't like either of those albums. I feel like I just wasn't in a Fiona Apple mind space those years when sort of everything came out. But I really given, you know, this episode and stuff, I'm definitely going to go back and revisit those because, you know,

Katrina Prow (57:48.318)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Katrina Prow (57:54.75)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (58:06.366)
Yeah.

Chad (58:14.283)
like you said, like I really want to just sort of listen to a whole discography and absorb it. Because I'll do that with even bands that I know and love, like I'll go back and do a whole discography re -listen every few years of some of my favorites. But you know, tell me about those two albums and sort of, you know, how you think about those.

Katrina Prow (58:22.686)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (58:27.774)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (58:31.838)
Well, the Eidler wheel is phenomenal. You have to listen to the Eidler wheel. I think it's hard for me to pick between When the Pawn and the Eidler wheel. As a Fiona fan for her whole discography and loving her for her whole life as an artist, what she did with the Eidler wheel is she kind of took a left turn on that. And like, you can tell.

Chad (58:41.705)
Okay.

Katrina Prow (58:59.358)
her voice isn't, I mean, it's still powerful, but like it's breaking in places. She also did like a lot of her own instrumentation and use like weird sound bites. One of my favorite songs for that is called Werewolf. And at the end of it, she like records a bunch of kids playing in a playground and has like this playground noise come in. So.

It was a left turn album and it actually, it feels really reminiscent of like Fetch the Bolt Cutters and that she was experimenting and trying new things and like working with different sounds. That, I mean, that album to me is also just incredible and really special because I, when that album came out, I was moving to West Texas to get my PhD. So it was my, I left California. I was on my own for the first time as an adult.

And that album came out, I think, in like June. And that was what I listened to when I drove two states away. And a lot of it is about being like lonely and isolated. I mean, it's just, it really is a phenomenal album. Like growing up and like maybe being around people, but still feeling that like loneliness and isolation that like you sometimes feel when you're growing older. Like, does anybody really get me anymore? I mean, it's an incredible, incredible, incredible album.

Chad (01:00:19.496)
Hey.

Katrina Prow (01:00:21.278)
So I love the idler wheel like every song to me that one is also a no skip album for me I've loved extraordinary machine to I mean for me they're all like my favorites, right? It's like a different day. Like what ice cream flavor do you want today? I don't know. What do I feeling? Extraordinary machine that was during that whole feel free Fiona fiasco Which I later found out was a misunderstanding. So again, the urban legend was that she had written this album

Chad (01:00:27.112)
Okay.

Katrina Prow (01:00:49.054)
and record executives were like, we don't want to release it because, you know, when the pawn didn't do that well and like, you're not really this chart topping artist anymore. So like, we're not, we're probably not going to release it. We don't think you have any hits. And so somehow it got leaked and that's where, you know, they started this whole free Fiona, free Fiona movement. And here's, here's the album. Everybody has to listen to it. And so that was the one I discovered on.

Chad (01:01:09.928)
Right, I remember that.

Katrina Prow (01:01:16.254)
on my tunes, because a user had shared a playlist called Free Fiona, and I thought, well, how many Fiona's are out there? This has to be Fiona Apple, you know, like how many music artists are named Fiona? And I didn't, I don't even think I knew that she had an album out, you know, I mean, we weren't like absorbing news the way that we absorb news now.

Chad (01:01:23.976)
All right.

Chad (01:01:37.864)
Sure.

Katrina Prow (01:01:39.358)
So I mean, I think that album is incredible too, but it kind of gets lost in sort of the folklore about it. I think the reality is that the album was complete, but no one was happy with it, including Fiona. And she was like, we're not done, we're not ready. And so she re -recorded all of it and added a few songs, took a few songs off and then released it. And you know, it was kind of like a sleeper album.

there, I don't think there were really any hits on it. She made a couple music videos. She made a music video for O' Sailor. And I know that one because it was on the Queen Mary in Long Beach. And I remember thinking that was really cool. She had come to Long Beach. My favorite song for that, from that one is Not About Love. And I, she recorded a music video on that one with Zach Galifianakis. And it's a pretty hilarious music video just because

Chad (01:02:32.346)
yeah, okay.

Katrina Prow (01:02:35.678)
everything Zach Galifianakis does, he just shows up on screen and I start laughing. He's just a funny person. But in the video, he and Fiona are kind of pretending to be lovers, which is just a comedy in itself because they both have this overwhelming, I think, stage presence on camera, but in different ways. She's just overwhelmingly kind of smarmy.

and like looks mean and then you have Zach Galifianakis who's just like playing the role of, you know, being a clown. So it's a really funny music video. But I think one of my favorite Fiona Apple songs of all time is actually on Extraordinary Machine. She has a song called Waltz and it's similar to I Know where it's like you have the whole album full of very typical Fiona Apple music and then the final track is kind of this like

Chad (01:03:08.97)
It's a bit goofy, yeah.

Katrina Prow (01:03:33.15)
optimistic, hopeful take on, I guess, like being a loner or being a little weird, being a little strange. And she has this lyric that says, you know, if you don't have a date, celebrate, go out and sit on the lawn and do nothing because nobody does that anymore. And I remember hearing that and being like, it's like really not about the perception of other people like who

Chad (01:03:54.378)
Hmm.

Katrina Prow (01:04:02.43)
Like, who cares what anybody's thinking about you? And again, I think we're so much better about this in 2024, right? In 2024, we're just like, be yourself, like, do you. But I think growing up as a woman in the 90s and the 2000s, there wasn't a lot of artists who were telling you just like, be yourself and be by yourself. And like, who cares what people think? But I love that song Waltz on Extraordinary Machine. And it is a waltz and it's very...

Chad (01:04:09.995)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (01:04:29.534)
I mean, it just, it's a feel good song, which is crazy to think of Fiona Apple having a feel good song, but she does. That might be her only one. Yeah.

Chad (01:04:36.926)
Right. I just saw something on Twitter speaking of like, you know, being okay with yourself and loving yourself. I just saw something that was really cool and it was, it was somebody saying, be your favorite version of yourself. Like, you know, so many people say be the best version of yourself. It was be the, be your favorite version of yourself, right? Like don't worry about what anybody else thinks or about being good or good enough. Like just be your favorite version. I thought that was really cool.

Katrina Prow (01:04:50.91)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (01:04:55.838)
Right.

Katrina Prow (01:05:02.366)
Yeah, I think that's what like, you know, I'm getting ready. I'll be turning 40 next year. And this is like what this new era of my life is about. Like, I feel, I feel so secure in in myself and in my eccentricities and my weirdness is now that I'm just like really just like celebrating that and like really not caring at all, like what anybody is thinking about you. And

You know, of course today everybody's saying it, right? Like today we have like the Lizzo's and we have all these people, it's all self love. But you know, as someone who grew up in the 90s, it wasn't always that way. But I feel like I'm finally in a place where I'm like, I kind of like being weird. I like being strange. Like I don't wanna be cool. I don't wanna be cool. I know that I'm a geek about a lot of stuff. And I think that actually makes me cooler.

Chad (01:05:48.427)
Hallelujah. Yep.

Katrina Prow (01:06:00.158)
Then I thought when I thought I was cool, right when I thought I was cool I was not cool at all But now that I'm just like a weirdo. I'm way cooler. Yeah

Chad (01:06:00.556)
Hell yeah!

Chad (01:06:08.843)
I don't think I ever have thought I was cool in my whole life. But like you, I think when I hit my 40s, I'm 52, and when I hit my 40s, I think is when I just started to not give a rat's ass what anybody thought and was really okay with myself and embrace the quirkiness and the geekiness. And look, here I am. I run a podcast about music. I mean, you know, doesn't doesn't get much more geeking out -ish than that, right?

Katrina Prow (01:06:20.446)
Yeah, who cares?

Katrina Prow (01:06:27.934)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (01:06:32.83)
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, for a while it was kind of uncool to like Fiona Apple. And I wrote about this in the, in my essay is it's like when, when criminal came out, everybody really liked her. But then I remember like it took a left turn and it was like, you didn't really tell people that you liked Fiona Apple. and that sort of idea of like community, there was always like a secret community of people who loved Fiona Apple. And I remember when I would meet another Fiona Apple fan in the wild.

That wasn't really music that me and my friends listened to. But like if I met another Fiona Apple fan, there's like that moment of like, yeah, like we know, like we know we're cool. You know, like we may not always talk about it. And now today when people are like, you know, top five artists, I'm always like, well, my number one is Fiona Apple all day, every day. Like, of course I like, you know, artists that are somewhat cool. But if I'm really being myself, like...

Fiona Apple, Kate Bush, who's also a weirdo. Like, now I'm just like, I'm not gonna pretend like I don't like these weirdos anymore, because I really actually do. And I see a lot of myself in these artists that are just so true to themselves too. Yeah.

Chad (01:07:32.843)
Yeah.

Chad (01:07:36.427)
hahahaha

Chad (01:07:44.909)
Yeah, well, coming from a huge Steely Dan nerd, I feel you. And I've really found my tribe, you know, like this whole podcast sort of started sort of out of my love for Steely Dan and finding people that felt the same way. And, you know, it was never meant to be a Steely Dan podcast. It's still not. But, you know, it always comes back around to that. And the first, you know, bunch of episodes were heavily leaning toward that because it's the kind of people that I was talking to on Instagram and Twitter and just sort of had this great community. And, you know, then I

Katrina Prow (01:07:48.03)
Yes.

Chad (01:08:14.862)
of figured out that like okay it's like the secret society kind of thing but so many people are into so many other great artists and cool things and everybody has their own kind of take on it which is the most interesting part of it to me.

Katrina Prow (01:08:28.03)
Yeah, I love Sealy Dan too. I'm probably not as, as intense of a fan as you are, but at the, one of my first restaurant jobs, all we played was yacht rock. So that was my introduction to Sealy Dan. And really like I, they must've, it might've even been like a Sealy Dan radio station for all I know, but I can distinctly remember hearing Babylon Sisters for the first time and being like,

Chad (01:08:54.252)
card yeah

Katrina Prow (01:08:55.902)
What the fuck is this? Like I can remember like waiting tables and being like, what is this? But for me, the number one Steely Dan song in my heart and in my soul is Dirty Work. I'm just like, I love Dirty Work so much. And it's another one of those songs that's like, when I meet somebody else who knows Steely Dan and who knows Dirty Work, it's like, yeah, I see you, we see each other.

Chad (01:08:57.164)
hahahaha

Chad (01:09:09.9)
Okay.

Chad (01:09:19.692)
Hahaha

I got to ask, have you heard them do it live? I mean, not that you, whether you've seen them live or not, but like, have you seen any live performance videos? So I guess they started, so dirty work was, as you know, was not sung by Donald Fagan. It was, David Palmer, who was the original singer. And then, you know, he got kicked at the curb pretty quickly, but basically Fagan, I guess, never liked singing the song and it just didn't work with his voice or whatever, according to him. So.

live shows when they got back together in the 90s and through the 2000s, they would let the Danettes, the background singers sing, take turns singing verses on the song and they slowed it down even a little bit more than what's on the record. Just like the, it's one of the highlights to me of every live Steely Dan show. I've never seen them live. Yeah, I will link it in the notes and I'll send it to you after this, but

Katrina Prow (01:10:04.99)
Mm -hmm.

Katrina Prow (01:10:12.222)
I gotta see it.

Chad (01:10:18.506)
I can't remember. There's one specific performance that's just like the best version of it and I'll have to find it. I'll definitely do some research.

Katrina Prow (01:10:28.51)
Yeah, I think when I had started then like really listening to Steely Dan after hearing it at this like work playlist and then I like got a little bit more nuanced into it. I love the song Peg. I mean, I think everybody loves Peg, but like what a great, I mean, that song just makes me want to move my body and being a former dancer, any song that makes me dance is the best. But there was this, I think it started out as a Twitter account. I don't know if you know this, but it was called Steely Dance. Have you ever heard of this?

Chad (01:10:45.13)
Yes.

Chad (01:10:55.626)
Yes, yes, yes.

Katrina Prow (01:10:56.478)
Yeah, so then Steely, it was like one of my favorite handles for years because this girl, her name was Grace Spellman, and I still follow her. She still loves Steely Dan, would just like post these clips of people dancing and then put Steely Dan music on top of it. And it just, to me, this is like capital J joy. Like I could watch videos of Steely dance all day long.

Chad (01:11:16.554)
Yes.

Katrina Prow (01:11:20.382)
every day. And I do think in college there was a, there's this one guy that I liked and he loved Steely Dan too. And so it was like, you know, it was kind of cool to find old music from the seventies at that point and listen to, you know, old seventies, yacht rock. And I still love yacht rock. I have like actually a necklace that says yacht rock and cursive. I mean, I just, that kind of music, you know, back to some of the, I don't know about like seventies. I don't even know how you would like classify it.

Chad (01:11:39.05)
Google.

Katrina Prow (01:11:48.67)
outside of yacht rock, but some of the Fleetwood Mac stuff and then some of Doobie Brothers, like it's just music that makes you feel good and makes you want to dance. I'll never turn down a dance break, you know?

Chad (01:11:55.834)
yeah.

Chad (01:12:01.866)
Yeah. I hear you. Cool. Well, anything else, Kat, you want to cover before we wrap up? I feel like we've run the gamut.

Katrina Prow (01:12:09.662)
I don't think so. Yeah, I know. I did want to talk about Steely Dan. So I'm glad we, I'm glad you circled back to that at the end. Cause I was like, I do hope. I know Alex was like, you should talk about Steely Dan. I'm like, not with the Steely Dan expert because I'm just like watching, I'm just watching people like dance to Steely Dan and thinking like, this is so hilarious. But,

Chad (01:12:16.361)
Yeah.

Chad (01:12:21.801)
I'm not an expert.

Katrina Prow (01:12:28.702)
I mean, I do, that's Dirty Work song. It's on my list of songs that I want to potentially write essays about because I have such a strong memory of hearing that one too. So maybe soon, I'll let you know. Yeah.

Chad (01:12:39.945)
Yeah, for sure. I'd love to read it. Cool. All right. Well, with that being said, I guess I will in the show notes, I will put a link to your website. I think that's probably the best way for people to get exposed to your writing. Everything's linked there, right? Great. Okay. Well, thanks so much for coming on. It's been lovely talking to you.

Katrina Prow (01:12:51.71)
Yeah.

Katrina Prow (01:12:55.39)
Yes, yes.

Katrina Prow (01:13:01.342)
Awesome, yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I mean, anytime I can like geek out with somebody about music is like, I could do this all day every day. So thanks for having me.

Chad (01:13:05.417)
Ha ha

Well, we'll have to have you back on and geek out again for sure. All right, thanks, Cap. All right, see ya.

Katrina Prow (01:13:12.062)
Alright, sounds good. Okay, bye bye.