Episode 16 transcript

Note: this transcript is AI-generated, and as such, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.

Chad (00:05.492)
Greetings and welcome back to the Aural Mess podcast. I'm joined again this week by Phil DiCriscio. Hey, Phil. Good, man. So we're going to pick up where we left off. You know, the first episode that we did together was favorite albums, not necessarily in any order or, you know, any, any ranking necessarily, but just favorite albums of, of, you know, the, the, the thousands that we probably all listen to. So we didn't get to finish. Hence, you know, you're back again and I think we have two more albums each to get through. So.

Phil DiCriscio (00:11.118)
Hey, how you doing, Chad?

Phil DiCriscio (00:34.222)
for sure. Sorry for the yapping, as the young people say, but I love yapping. I'm from the country of yap or whatever meme I posted the other day, and I'm here to just gush about things I love. And today is more of my favorite albums.

Chad (00:43.218)
hahahaha

Chad (00:51.667)
Nice, well now it shows and the yapping is not a bad thing. I could talk for hours and hours and hours about this stuff, although I think people wouldn't listen after a certain point. Cool, well, why don't we jump in? Why don't you go first? And which one are you gonna tackle?

Phil DiCriscio (01:09.486)
So I was trying to approach albums aside from Aja when I got into them. So this first album I'm going to talk about I got into during college. And it's Miles Davis.

Phil DiCriscio (01:41.166)
and

This is an album that I listen to a lot. It has more to do with what it represents to me more so than the music involved. At this point in Miles Davis' history, he was out of the Charlie Parker band and he was trying to do his own thing. This is before the first great quintet. This...

Phil DiCriscio (02:13.614)
way before the second grade quintet. And he assembled a group of nine musicians, it was mostly it was nonet. And his idea at this time, and he was listening to a lot of, with Gil Evans, he was spending a lot of time at the Gil Evans apartment.

listen to a lot Prokofiev, Stravinsky, a lot of these classical composers. So his idea at this time was to take treble and bass versions of every instrument and assemble them into a group. So you have alto saxophone and baritone saxophone. You have trumpet being a conical brass instrument and trombone being also a conical brass instrument but a bass instrument. You have French horn and tuba once again being

conical and bass and then you have your standard rhythm section of a piano bass.

Phil DiCriscio (03:09.87)
And this was his idea was just to take these high and low versions of instrument families and kind of create something with that. And he was in his twenties, maybe when he thought of that. And I came to this album as a tuba player, trying to get into jazz and there's not many jazz tuba players. In my high school jazz...

My band director, my second band director was a tuba player so he really encouraged me to kind of reach out and he was a tuba player who loved jazz and in my high school jazz band he would hand me like fourth trombone parts and said you're not playing that go take the piano part go take the bass part and figure something out and I guess I did to an acceptable level. Yeah.

Chad (04:02.482)
My band director did that too, right? And we can talk about that, but yeah, keep going.

Phil DiCriscio (04:10.414)
So I was ingratiated into jazz as a tuba player, not as a traditional jazz instrument, right? Not a saxophone, not a trumpet, not a trombone.

Phil DiCriscio (04:24.142)
felt this closeness to the jazz community. And there's jazz here.

Phil DiCriscio (04:37.806)
that's fine and that's good but there's no there's no Miles Davis of the jazz to a player there's no Charlie Parker there's no stud for lack of a better term and with it's it's not

Chad (04:42.99)
Right?

Chad (04:49.203)
Well, it's not a lead instrument, right? So I mean, it's hard to get to that level, I think, when you're sort of relegated to being like an accompaniment, really.

Phil DiCriscio (04:58.862)
for sure and I've always been an ensemble tuba player. I've always felt comfortable like playing my whole notes in the back of an orchestra or the back of a band. But I was trying to get into jazz and try to find, because at that point, you know, I was late high school, early college, I was trying, you know, I was shitting all over Wagner excerpts trying to imagine I was in the back of the Bayreuth Orchestra and I'm just.

Phil DiCriscio (05:26.382)
some guy in Pennsylvania just shitting all over excerpts but but no this out

Chad (05:29.52)
Ha ha.

Chad (05:33.17)
What made you pick the tuba? We never had that.

Phil DiCriscio (05:38.08)
No, no, so my first instrument was clarinet Not by my choice. I was really bad at sports imagine me the fat Italian guy with the And my parents would encourage encouraged me to play sports Basketball soccer Wrestling never football. Thank God cuz brain damage anyway, um, and I was I was really I was pretty good at wrestling

Chad (05:52.357)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (06:07.95)
That was kind of -

Phil DiCriscio (06:13.838)
was good at but but I was like you know fifth grade I was like I don't like sports and I'm not having fun and they're like you have to do something you have to make friends because back then autism wasn't a wasn't a word so they're like let's I guess you're

Chad (06:25.757)
Right.

Phil DiCriscio (06:34.414)
I like being a band. I like playing but but I think it was the the fact that playing the clarinet was out of my out of my hands not my choice Middle school I discovered there was a thing called a bass clarinet, and I always gravitate toward like the low end to to You know deep timbre of your bass clarinet

Phil DiCriscio (07:01.742)
et cetera. So I was like, okay, I'll do this. I did that for a number of years and then I was in 10th grade.

I was like, I kinda like this music thing, I guess I wanna teach it for the rest of my life. And you can't major on bass clarinet, it's like, it's one of those things where it's an auxiliary instrument. So most musicologists say, you know, played a normal clarinet, or you played alto saxophone, you know, can't come in on baritone sax, for better, for worse.

Chad (07:28.529)
All right.

Phil DiCriscio (07:38.38)
woodshedding on metal snag serps. I like that low, that low.

I guess tuba is my way in. So I 10th or 11th grade picked up tuba. My band teacher was a tuba player and let me borrow his personal tuba. And I took lessons and I woodshed it and I was just on it. And it worked out, I guess, for the best. Cause I'm currently teaching music and once in a while bring out the tuba and all things. Yeah. So, so, so, so, so the tuba was not.

Chad (08:10.066)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (08:15.886)
because of the tuba is because I like low and you know and being such a Steely Dan fan or a Miles Davis fan or a Smiths fan it's all low end and you know it all kind of makes sense right what are my favorite orchestral works you know Prokofiev Symphony 5 where you know the bassoons the tuba

Chad (08:17.606)
Right. Yep. Oh yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (08:40.27)
Thanks.

Phil DiCriscio (08:46.378)
But I'm all, I'm all for it.

Chad (08:50.061)
Yeah, I started with alto sax. I started with guitar lessons in third grade because that was the earliest you were allowed to take an instrument. It was either guitar or violin and I was like, there's no way I'm playing the violin. So I picked guitar. My sister had a guitar. She played a little bit and I thought that was cool and you know, I liked the guitar. So that sort of got me started. And then fifth grade.

Phil DiCriscio (09:08.642)
Yeah now

Chad (09:11.127)
Is when you were allowed to pick like a quote -unquote real instrument like, you know brass woodwinds, whatever and I went with alto sax Same as you I wasn't crazy about alto, but that's what you start on like they wouldn't let you just jump right to tenor You know, which that's what I wanted to do because you know, I remember my music teacher He was like a classical nut and a jazz guy and all I wanted to do is get a metal mouthpiece so I could like shriek, you know, I mean like I Was I was that

Phil DiCriscio (09:33.486)
You you are that kid I've had that kid I've had that kid

Chad (09:39.888)
I was that kid and he was like, why the hell would you want to do that? You know, he's like, you're not doing that. You know, I'm not. So you can go buy your own mouthpiece. The school's not going to pay for it. You know, I'm like, all right, whatever. But same thing is like, you know, I kind of I guess I had an aptitude and, you I could sight read really well. So he used to throw me all these weird parts in jazz band like, you know, or even just in stage band. I was an orchestra. I couldn't do orchestra. I was an end.

Phil DiCriscio (09:46.026)
Yes. No.

Chad (10:05.617)
that kind of music and didn't do anything for me. But I was in marching band, stage band, jazz band. And I remember in stage band and jazz band, if the band director was like, really missing this part, because we didn't have every instrument like most school orchestras or bands don't. So as long as it was in the same key, and sometimes even if it wasn't, he would just throw a piece of sheet music in front of me. Like I remember one piece we were doing, I can't think of what it was, but there was like an oboe part. And he was like, God, I'm missing the oboe part. And he goes, Sutton, I'm like what? And he goes, here.

Phil DiCriscio (10:14.446)
Yeah, yeah.

Chad (10:33.585)
take this and he throws a piece of sheet music at me and it's like this E flat oboe part which is you know the alto is E flat he's like play this instead he's like you're not doing you know first first alto anymore and I'm like my come on like I was first he's like I don't care he goes you need because you're the only one that can do this just shut up and play it so I started to get an appreciation for counter melodies and harmony and all that kind of stuff because you know I started to play different things and kind of understood how it all kind of fit into a piece and it was great.

Phil DiCriscio (10:44.542)
Yep.

Yeah.

Chad (11:00.081)
And that sort of sparked an affinity for me with jazz, I think, from that age. And we didn't do anything terribly complex because it was eighth grade jazz band. But I remember there was a piece called A Sleep in Class, and I don't know who the composer was, but that was one of my favorite things to play because it was just this great upbeat, real horn -driven piece of music. And I'll have to go find it now. But yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (11:02.382)
you

Phil DiCriscio (11:16.078)
No, for sure there's always those like middle school band pieces that stick with you actually yesterday I I was at a junior County band festival and one of the pieces was by Victor Lopez and it was something I forget it was like it was something about about in

Chad (11:28.913)
you

Phil DiCriscio (11:45.934)
the title was was drums and the percussion section instead of having snares and bass

cans filled with Pepsi.

Chad (11:57.728)
Oh cool. Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (11:59.564)
and they had buckets and they had that that was the gimmick right was was playing non -traditional and it was super fun and and and the rest of the music was fun and the fact that there's this gimmick and I think the one of the most important pieces that I've ever played growing up was it was it was some middle school county band thing when I was you know sixth or seventh or eighth grade it was a Beatles medley it was a

Sgt. Pepper's medley and and you know, it was your typical medley, you know, the key changes are very slick and there's always your five of fives and And I'm not a huge Beatles fan. In fact, I'm a I'm a Beatles hater. I do like Sgt. Pepper's Is it is because of this experience? Maybe Is it because I have some good memories with a person about about this album? Maybe?

Chad (12:29.905)
. . .

Chad (12:45.117)
Fair, fair.

Phil DiCriscio (12:58.606)
I will always remember playing, you know, and that's back when I was based clarinet and just playing, you know, a day in life and the Sergeant Pepper's reprise and it's just little things that it happens, you know, it's, it always seems like it's the pop tunes that kind of stick with you at a certain age and after that, you, you know, I've played sophisticated band and orchestral music and has been wonderful, but I always come back to that stupid Beatles arrangement and, uh,

Chad (13:05.777)
Yeah.

Chad (13:26.529)
Hey, there are still pop songs from the 80s that we did in stage band that I hear now and I hear my sax part, you know what mean? Like even if it's not really there, like it was, you know, arranged for band that it really wasn't supposed to be. She blinded me with Science by Thomas Dolby. We did Material Girl by Madonna.

Phil DiCriscio (13:41.87)
Yeah

Phil DiCriscio (13:47.154)
Oh wow look at you that's fun good you did beat it okay There's uh, oh what what's the group's name? It's the ripping tins and they were basically the weather channel group

Chad (13:49.553)
We did, we did Beat It by Michael Jackson and Marching Band. That was our theme song that year. Yeah, yeah, that was fun. So I hear Material Girl and I can still hear my little sax stabs that I had to do and you know, it's funny. Right.

Phil DiCriscio (14:17.166)
I thought high school band first.

You positions got moved around and they were like, Phil, you're teaching high school band. And I was like, this sucks. But you know, I tried my best with it. And the one kid, a saxophone player, very, very good saxophone player was like, we did this a couple of years ago. Can we do it again? And she told me that I can't remember the tune, but it was the Rippington's and.

But I remember researching the piece and I was like, oh, it's the Weather Channel group. And I'm like, they kind of slapped. And I think that was my first inkling about Yacht Rock. I was like, listen to this. I'm like, this slaps. This is awesome. And then like three years later, I happened to be the Yacht Rock guy or whatever. I'm just like, listening to Doobie Brothers demos and just being really into it. It's funny where we're...

Chad (15:06.115)
Hahaha

It just sneaks up on you.

Phil DiCriscio (15:14.062)
where the seeds get planted for sort of things.

Chad (15:16.592)
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I grew up listening to the Doobies by Proxy because my sister was into them and used to play their albums at home and, you know, later in life in the car with them, you know, we're driving around and stuff. And I remember there's an episode, it's a famous episode of the show What's Happening and Rerun gets duped into recording like like smuggling a tape recorder into a Doobie Brothers show. And the Doobie Brothers are actually in the episode and like, you know, yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (15:37.21)
I saw that I thought that was a meme. That's a real thing. They were on okay

Chad (15:46.002)
It's a real episode and they're actually in it. And like, you know, he gets caught by their security guard and they bring him backstage and they're like, not cool, rerun, not cool, man. Like, you know, like it's just, it's such a 70s moment. It's beautiful.

Phil DiCriscio (16:08.27)
SCTV

Chad (16:09.458)
Yes. Yes.

Phil DiCriscio (16:12.622)
They rocked it, they, the Juby Brothers, and when I was a kid I thought they sucked, because I'm like, this is weird.

Chad (16:23.152)
They do. They are.

Chad (16:27.666)
Right.

Phil DiCriscio (16:28.174)
site and they're doing a new

care for it. I, I, this Yacht Rock revival, even though Hawn Oates just broke up, which pisses me off.

Chad (16:33.138)
Hahaha.

Chad (16:38.994)
I know.

Phil DiCriscio (16:40.878)
them. I am from the Philly area and...

was pre pandemic, right before the pandemic, there was like, you know, the Wawa Hoagie Fest. And my dad bought tickets for me, him and my sister, I was gonna drive down from my um, where I was teaching at the time. And it was the whole thing. We're super excited to go see Hall of Notes. And then the pandemic hit and the first thing to get canceled was Hall of Notes. And then you know, it was it was that time it was May, April, May.

Chad (16:52.594)
Yep.

Chad (17:02.875)
No.

Phil DiCriscio (17:16.942)
2020, it's like, it's gonna come back. Everything's.

Phil DiCriscio (17:26.446)
year.

Chad (17:34.469)
Yeah, of course. That always comes down to money, right? I know. Just...

Phil DiCriscio (17:39.758)
Can I just see a concert? Like, can I just see, can I feel joy? And the answer is no. Because money's involved.

Chad (17:46.769)
Yeah, you should just tell them to just suck it up and put on their big boy pants and get on stage together. And they don't have to be friends. They can just play music for a few hours and make the fans happy, right?

Phil DiCriscio (17:58.228)
I Van Halen a couple times. Like, like, and they, you know, David Lee Rolfe and Eddie, they made it work. Yeah. I mean, David Lee Rolfe did this weird intro that was 10 minutes of him playing acoustic guitar. And it was for Ice Cream Man, you know, which has the acoustic guitar, but instead of making it about girls or, or whatever, he just, on the screen behind him, there was this, this home footage of his dog, which is fine. I love animals, but he was like,

Chad (18:00.259)
Right, sure.

Chad (18:12.971)
Oh, right.

Chad (18:21.041)
you

Phil DiCriscio (18:28.158)
Doing a blues thing for 10 minutes about his dog before they went to ice cream man. It's like is this Necessary can we just play the song? But if they event Helen can make it work any band can make it work is my opinion

Chad (18:37.041)
Hahaha

Chad (18:42.307)
That's right. Absolutely.

So let's get back to Miles, because yeah, what else about this? So this is like a compilation album, right? It's not like it wasn't recorded sequentially on purpose. In other words, it was just culled together from a few different sessions or whatever.

Phil DiCriscio (18:48.046)
Yes, yes, yes. I just.

Phil DiCriscio (19:02.286)
Kind of, so this album was recorded in...

I didn't come out till I think...

said, Miles Davis.

kind of assembled these treble and bass versions of different instruments, alto sax, bari sax.

Chad (19:16.401)
you

Phil DiCriscio (19:24.134)
French horn tuba but it was way before his quartet or quintet the famous and that's the weird thing about this album and there's a couple other Miles Davis releases around this point where they were released right away I mean the fact that this took 10 years to come out is weird in terms of Miles Davis's output and the output of any musician at that time because this was

Chad (19:27.537)
you

Chad (19:36.515)
you

Phil DiCriscio (19:53.506)
the 50s, this was, you know, the LP became the standard. People were recording and coming out with things. There was a live gig that this, the Complete Birth of the Cool has, where it plays all the songs for Birth of the Cool. There's the theme.

But what this represents for me is really, like I said, like the the Tua in the jazz band and what it represents.

Phil DiCriscio (20:27.896)
utilized not as a gimmick but as an instrument and Miles Davis and Gil Evans would utilize the tuba in Sketch of Spain which came out I think this came out like after Sketch of Spain that's the weird thing about Birth of the Cool is like the fact that it was a 10 year waiting period right so Sketch of Spain came out

Phil DiCriscio (20:55.63)
Seven Steps to Heaven. But this was just like, there were singles, right? You can find the old shellac singles. This was featured in that really awful Sopranos prequel movie. Well, what was that? The Mesaids New Work, where Ray Leona, he demands jazz records in jail. And it's like, it's Birth of the Cool, and it's like...

Chad (21:20.303)
Hahaha

Phil DiCriscio (21:24.568)
some nonsense and he's like I don't want this I just want Birth of the Cool and I was like oh okay so the only good thing about that movie was name -dropping Miles Davis but like I said like what this represents for me is is the broadening of my horizons a more melodic tuba playing which I appreciated

Chad (21:39.135)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (21:49.632)
in Miles Davis' best record? No. Some would say Kind of Blue, some would say Bitches Brew, some would say Seven Steps to Heaven. I just... the orchestration is very interesting. It's a weird album, but it's part of that whole Miles mythology. So it is on my list because it has to be. It's interesting, it has to be, it's weird, it's...

Chad (21:54.753)
you

you

Phil DiCriscio (22:17.358)
does all these different things and he was in his mid -20s and it shows the genius of him at the service.

Chad (22:26.862)
Have you read his autobiography?

Phil DiCriscio (22:30.19)
on my Amazon list. That's that's

I saw the, there was that Miles Davis movie.

You McGregor, right?

Chad (22:43.791)
I think so, yeah, I didn't see it.

Phil DiCriscio (22:46.286)
I watched like half of that. I'm like that that's cool. Where's you know?

Chad (22:50.606)
His autobiography is a great read. It's in his voice. He has somebody helping him write it. Not necessarily a ghostwriter, because he's credited. Quincy Troop, I think, is the writer's name. But it's really a good read. Goes through his whole career. And it's just funny. There are moments in the book that you just laugh out loud because of how he describes something that happened.

Phil DiCriscio (22:58.062)
Thanks for watching.

you

Chad (23:16.654)
You know, like, just great. Just totally, it smiles his voice, like, you know what I mean? So, yeah, totally.

Phil DiCriscio (23:22.222)
miles. There's a story he was at, and I think this was the 80s, he was like at some White House event and some politician, someone who thinks they're better than everyone else was like, why are you here? And he's like, I've reinvented music like five or six times, why are you here? And he's one of those special musicians, he's on that level of...

Chad (23:40.877)
Ha ha ha.

Phil DiCriscio (23:51.278)
as much as I'm not a fan of like a John Lennon or Bruce Springsteen or he's because what he did was so innovative he took this genre of jazz and it wasn't you know a sideman in Charlie Parker's band and did did cool you know Birth of the Cools cool jazz bebop post -bop did the psychedelic kind of bitches brew in a silent

Chad (24:16.43)
of started fusion really, yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (24:17.922)
Yeah, I mean that that that bitch's brew band had a

Chad (24:23.374)
Korea and... yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (24:24.206)
with Chakri in it and John McLaughlin and that's a great album. And then you would have your Weather Report, your Jack O, Vassorius.

Phil DiCriscio (24:36.878)
I said, it's not my... Favorite albums is kinda tricky. It's not my favorite Miles Davis album, but where I was in my life as just being a Vogue.

Chad (24:47.406)
you

Phil DiCriscio (24:48.27)
trying to expand Birth of the Cool, great tuba playing, cool orchestration, the tunes, you know, they're two and a half minute, three minute tunes, they're pop tunes, essentially. It was just, and I love, you know, they had one or two live sets, like, it's so neat that like this was captured. And this was the 50s. This was, it's weird that it was captured. And we should, you know, appreciate that and respect that.

fact that you know you know we as Steely Danners we drill over you know this one you know a concert from 1996 where they were yeah ain't no but it's like this is a big deal the fact that you know the the parts were found every constructed to a score and you can see I have all the not movements I would call the movements tunes bookmarked and

Chad (25:27.471)
and a nugget.

Chad (25:40.943)
Yes, here.

Phil DiCriscio (25:47.246)
It's weird, but it's cool. And I wish more, I wish all my favorite albums had that treatment.

Chad (25:50.703)
Yes.

Chad (25:58.607)
All right, anything else to say on Birth of the Cool? Yeah, you know, I have, I have, I bought the CDs years and years and years ago. I probably haven't listened to that album in too long, so I'm gonna go back and revisit. All right, so.

Phil DiCriscio (26:01.326)
Listen to it. Listen to it. It's great.

Phil DiCriscio (26:20.366)
Yes.

Chad (26:21.774)
So the one that we didn't get to last time was Let Me Come Over, the 1992 masterpiece by Buffalo Tom. Yeah, so I guess context for me, I just, it's funny. I wrote a Twitter thread on like sort of my own history with Buffalo Tom. A couple years ago, there was this music thing. I was doing like all these music challenges on Twitter and you know, they're kind of fun.

Phil DiCriscio (26:27.886)
Yep. Wonderful album.

Phil DiCriscio (26:33.646)
you

Chad (26:51.562)
So there was a thing called 30 days, 30 DJs, and everybody signed up for like a day, right? And on your day, you would play DJ for the day and introduce everybody else to like one specific artist, right? Whoever it was, didn't matter who it was. And the idea was you would tell stories about like how you discovered the band and like, you know, why you like them and some of your favorite songs. And you could post song links and videos and...

articles and you know, anything goes kind of it was just like, you know, educate us about a band that you love, right? Like share your love for an artist. So the first one of those that I did was Buffalo Tom. And I wrote this like 25 or 26 tweet long thread about like, you know, sort of how I came to love the band and sort of like my history of, you know, listening to them through the years. So I just recently sort of just copied and pasted that and made it into a blog post. So.

I'll link it in the show notes, but basically on my Oral Mess website, there's a blog section and you know, every so often I'll write something and throw it up there. So it's up now. So how I got into the band was, you know, as I've said on the podcast a bunch of times, and I think you know this too, Phil, I grew up in South Jersey, you know, I lived in Atlantic City. And, you know,

Phil DiCriscio (27:45.76)
you

Chad (28:07.681)
summer in between college one year I was working on the boardwalk in this mall and doing retail and it was you know corporate retail so they had like this music system right it was like basically a tape deck and they had these tapes that they would send every month we get a new tape and a lot of it was was geared toward like top 40 and dance music and upbeat stuff like you know because you're shopping and you know they want you to feel good but when the whole alternative and grunge thing really sort of started to explode a little more they kind of got with the

times and they started sending out like more alternative rock type tapes. So I yeah, and I gravitated toward that and I would play it. I was a store manager. So, you know, nobody could tell me what to play. Right. So I was playing those tapes and people like put the dance tape back in and I'm like, no, only on Saturdays when it's busy right now. It's three o 'clock on a Tuesday. I need to hear friggin, you know, Soundgarden. So anyway, I wasn't real familiar with Buffalo Tom before that. I think I maybe heard a couple.

couple other songs, you know, through college radio years, that sort of thing. But I remember their song Torch Singer off of Big Red Letter Day was on one of these tapes. And I just fell in love with that song and then realized, you know, I didn't know too much about the band. So I think I went and bought the album probably on my break from work. I probably walked out of Sam Goody and plunked down the 12 bucks or whatever, 10 bucks for the CD and just was like, wow, love this band, right? So from there, I kind of worked my way backwards.

Um, you know, that was their fourth album, let me come over as their third album. So, um, I got into let me come over and I was like, wow, how did I miss this when it came out? You know, it was just like a few years after it had been released. Um, so, you know, from there, I just started listening to them. They had an album out in 95, another one in 98. Um, and then in 90, I think it was 98, I was working at a school district. This is when I had switched jobs and, you know, left retail and gotten into technology. So I was.

working for a school district and there was a woman who worked in the administration for the school district and I would stop in and talk to her from time to time you know just make my rounds or whatever because you know I was like a technician so I had to you know help people with different issues things like that so I don't know how the topic came up I must have been it must have been like

Chad (30:29.839)
you know, an off day or a summer day when we were allowed to wear t shirts and stuff to school. So I was wearing some band t shirts. She was like, Oh, you like that band? And I'm like, Yeah. And she goes, Have you heard of a band called Buffalo Tom? And I'm like,

Barbara, you're a little too old for Buffalo Tom. How do you know them? And she goes, well, my son -in -law is the lead singer and the guitar player. I'm get out of here. I'm like, no way, get out of here. Yeah. So she was like, yeah, you know, and, you know, they're coming to Philly in a few months. And I'm like, I know. I'm like, I have tickets. And she's like, oh, you do? Would you like to meet the band? I'll call Bill, my son -in -law and Bill Janavitz, who's the lead singer. And she's like, you know, I'll get you backstage. You can meet the band. And I'm like, uh, yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (30:52.142)
Okay.

Chad (31:11.453)
Thanks. That would be great. So she did, I did and took my girlfriend at the time and it was at Theater of Living Arts in Philly, which I don't even know if it's okay. Yeah, it's still there. And great show. Okay, yeah. It's a... Oh yeah, yeah. And...

Phil DiCriscio (31:22.286)
TLA.

Well, I don't know if it's still there, I just know it's... It's all hardcore show or two back in the day. I mean, that was ten years ago, so... Who knows?

Chad (31:33.455)
And this was longer than that. So I don't know if they're still around, but if they are, it's a great little venue. And we were lucky enough that the band let us watch from the side of the stage. They were like, do you guys want to hang out backstage, see the show from the side of the stage? Sure. So we just literally stood on the side of the stage and watched the whole thing. It was great. And halfway through, I think we walked out to the front for a little bit to get the sound and get the experience. So anyway, from then, I've been hooked.

Phil DiCriscio (31:51.374)
Yeah?

Phil DiCriscio (31:59.104)
Yeah.

Chad (32:03.823)
and none of the people in the band and Buffalo Tom do music full time anymore. They all have like day jobs.

They put out an album like every five, six, seven, eight years now. They have a new one coming out in May, which I'm really excited about because it's been a while. I think the last one was 2016, I wanna say. Yeah, maybe it was 2016. Anyway, so yeah, so let me come over. Third album sort of represents a little bit of a different sound for the band because the first two albums were real dirty.

lo -fi guitar driven, you know, and you use this term and I love that you use this term, college rock music, right? And it was produced by Jay Mascis from Dinosaur Jr. When Buffalo Tom first started to come out and get popular, they were, people referred to them as Dinosaur Jr. Jr. So, yeah. So what do you think? I know you listen to it.

Phil DiCriscio (33:01.486)
I listened to it once or twice, maybe three times. I liked it. The whole college, as I say, college rock sound, R .A .M., Dicewitch Jr., Pixies, has been a sound I've always liked, but never... When I first heard the Pixies, I was deep in my punk rock phase. I was busy with the germs, the super jerks, adolescents. I would listen to the Pixies. I saw Fight Club when I was 14, you know, so...

But I was driving a lot this weekend and listened to this album and thought it was phenomenal. Yeah, great. I was like, there's what I thought immediately was there's this alternative world where I didn't get into punk rock or hardcore and got into like my main listening would be college rock, you know, Dobson Jr., Pixies, etc. And...

Chad (33:36.751)
It's a great driving album. It's great for the car.

Chad (33:56.556)
Right.

Phil DiCriscio (33:58.446)
Buffalo Tom would fit well into that vibe. I thought it was great. My favorite song, I think, is the big hit from this album. What? Second tune? Yeah, and that's the one I gravitate to. And I know it's basic or whatever, but... Which is Jan Lee Guitar. I know they were, well, Jay Mascis produced it, but their friends was Dinosaur Jr. And the other...

Chad (34:09.007)
taillights fade. Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (34:26.476)
What was it? Massachusetts? Bands? Yeah, yeah, that kind of Northeast. And if I didn't get into the Smiths when I did, I probably would have gotten to them sort of thing. Like I just, it's great music. I look forward to exploring their sound and...

Chad (34:27.184)
Yeah. Hmm? Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (34:48.334)
It's great, it's like a Sonic Youth to me, like where I like this band, I need to check it out more. But I have other...

Chad (34:57.934)
Oh yeah, I mean, just there's so many things to catch up on, I know.

Phil DiCriscio (34:58.976)
listens.

Yeah, yeah, I it's just great album super talented just songs about breakups and sadness and III find myself listening to the to the the saddest music

in the sunniest weather. Like, the Smiths to me are a sunshine band. Like, when the sun starts to poke out and it's summertime, I just listen to the Smiths. I don't know why. And then when the, you know, when it's overcast, I listen to Celia Dan, so I guess I'm just a moody, moody human being. But no, I, great album. Could see how it's someone's favorite. And I need to listen to more of their stuff because it's just...

Chad (35:34.766)
Bye.

Phil DiCriscio (35:45.676)
Well done.

Chad (35:47.181)
And their sound continues to evolve past that album, right? When you get into Big Red Letter Day, they get a little more, you know, higher production value even than Let Me Come Over. Then the next album, Sleepy -Eyed, sort of takes everything in a slightly different direction. And then when you keep going through their catalog, their sound just matures, they add some piano and...

again. Not that it wasn't there at all before, but like it gets a little bit more prominent in the sound and the song craft just really sort of gets better, you know. And it's funny because, you know, I think the guys in the band are probably maybe eight years older than me -ish. I don't know how old they are. I think they're like in their late 50s. So it's funny because some of their albums hit me like, you know,

their album skins is like when they were in their 40s and like I was just getting to that point in my life. So like some of the material kind of hits me, you know what I mean? And now that the last album that they put out, the single is called All Be Gone and I'm gonna butcher the line, but it's something like my time ahead is shorter than my time behind. And I was like, oof.

Phil DiCriscio (36:42.606)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (36:58.606)
Hehehehehe

Chad (37:00.886)
You know, like that, that, that, that lyric just fucked with me for like a week after I heard the song for the first time, but I couldn't stop playing it because it just, you know, it made sense. So I was like, man, yeah, okay. So anyway, you know, it's, it's kind of funny because I kind of grew up with, with the band that I feel like they're, they're still making music that speaks to me. So.

Phil DiCriscio (37:08.652)
No.

Phil DiCriscio (37:21.006)
I found that interesting. I recently picked up the 33 and a third book on the Ramones debut of a top 10 album if we were to expand this. And I was listening to the album again. And because I was 12 when I first listened to that, I didn't realize that 53 and a third was our prostitution.

And I was listening to it and it's like, oh, try and turn a trick. And then Dee Dee's lying about cutting someone. I'm like, oh, who let me listen to this when I was 12? But it's one of those things, it becomes more relatable as you grow older. Most Seelie Dan records, a lot of punk albums. This album, I'm sure if I would go back and listen to...

Chad (38:01.644)
some of this.

Phil DiCriscio (38:15.788)
What was it? Minutemen, Double Knuckles on a Dime? A great album. I loved, but I'm sure if I listened to it right now, I would be like, oh, this sucks because I get it.

Chad (38:28.864)
Well that was like me listening to Dead Kennedys when I was like 14, you know, like I loved the music and it was just like amazing but I didn't get half of the references and half of the political shit and you know looking back now it's like wow. They predicted, they like Simpson the hell out of like the modern world.

Phil DiCriscio (38:42.958)
They gel.

Phil DiCriscio (38:49.486)
Jello is one of the smartest people, I think, to have, like, in the punk scene, and people never give it credit, but the punk scene is home to some of the smartest people, I think. You have a Henry, you have a Jello, you have a Keith from Circle Jerks, you have Milo.

Chad (39:01.22)
Yeah.

Chad (39:09.484)
John Lydon, who's brilliant. People think he was just, you know, this sneering asshole in the sex festivals, but he's a freaking genius. He's really, really smart.

Phil DiCriscio (39:18.766)
Buzzcocks guys all super smart and it's it's you know, it doesn't get that love because you know punks supposed to be fast and aggressive and it's like yes But what are the lyrics saying the bad brains, you know for all the fault the Homophobia that a lot of later later Brad bad brain stuff had that first bad brains out You know, they were

Chad (39:21.164)
Yeah.

Chad (39:33.356)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (39:46.254)
J .R. or what was the name? Not J .R. That was the guy from Dallas. The singer. The PMA. Positive Mental Attitude. You know, it just, and I use that in my current teaching. I'm like, you kids need the PMA, the Positive Mental Attitude. Does it work all the time? No, because they're 12. So, you know, I was a movie 12 year old, but I try to promote that. No, the punk scene.

Chad (40:04.332)
hahahaha

Phil DiCriscio (40:16.11)
lot of really intelligent people because I think they saw things for how things are or were you know that was what Reaganomics that was that was just nonsense and they they said fuck that and I don't know it's wonderful it still holds up and it shouldn't I'm mad about listening to the De Kennees and like yeah I'm mad you know you listen to the Kennedy's it's like

Chad (40:27.852)
Me too.

Phil DiCriscio (40:44.59)
Oh, I get this. It's like, I shouldn't. I should, we should be past this, but... That's life.

Chad (40:54.444)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (40:54.54)
I get - I - it's great music. I also feel very sad when I listen to, you know, Kill the Poor with the - the - obviously the irony of it. It's like - and then you see memes about anti -homeless infrastructure. It's like, uh, can we just be nice?

Chad (41:01.3)
Yes.

Chad (41:10.7)
I love the fact that Jell -O ran for mayor. It was like 1981 or something. And his whole platform was that politicians had to wear clown suits to work and he was just...

Phil DiCriscio (41:16.238)
Yes. Yes! He has went forward.

Phil DiCriscio (41:24.718)
Yes! He's... And that's... That's... That's the best part of punk rock is not the music, as great as it is. I saw, you know, I've seen some great punk bands, but just shitting on nonsense. Doesn't, you know... The great punk bands don't say anything that we don't think, right? They're just...

Chad (41:28.652)
out of everybody it was...

Chad (41:36.492)
Right, exactly.

Phil DiCriscio (41:52.846)
But it's upfront, it's in your face, it's that spirit, it's that we could probably fix this, but let's just call out nonsense. And it's a hard position to be in, you know, if you have a government job or you have a social job, but Jello's there saying it, Keith's there saying it, Henry.

Chad (42:17.032)
The clash.

Chad (42:22.249)
seen obviously, but like some of the some of their stuff too is just so on point and still is when you listen back.

Phil DiCriscio (42:23.264)
No.

Phil DiCriscio (42:30.278)
Well, the Clash is special, I think, because their relation to like the scocene and the anti -racism. I mean, that's why the two -tone records was white and black. It was the coming together. And there's a 33 and a third book about San Anista, which was Clash's triple album. Not an album, for the record, that I've been a huge fan of.

not because I don't like the music because it's a triple album. It's the same thing, as much as I love like, Mars Corsese, it's the same thing that's put me off of, what killers are the flower moon? That's three and a half hours. Like look, look, I, I teach, I come home, I just wanna make a shit meal and go to bed and three and a half hours for a movie. I'm trying to get better.

Chad (43:06.024)
It's a -

Chad (43:10.183)
That's a commitment.

Chad (43:14.375)
Ha ha.

Chad (43:20.999)
I have a hard time committing to movies that are longer than like 215. That's my limit.

Phil DiCriscio (43:27.758)
that I've I have some very close friends who are film buffs. I've always wanted to be like the film guy but I fell into the music

Chad (43:28.231)
Yeah.

Chad (43:43.4)
I'm not a f -

Phil DiCriscio (43:43.534)
I've tried to watch, what is it?

Chad (43:47.112)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Chad (43:55.592)
Please tell me you...

Phil DiCriscio (43:56.846)
Return of the Jedi? I guess? Like, like... A Sopranos episode? Like...

Chad (44:02.953)
Please tell me that since you're such a big Sopranos fan, please tell me you've seen the Pope of Greenwich Village. Oh, Phil, you have to go. And it's only an hour and a half long. It's not even a long movie. So you need, it's no, it's just, it's a mafia movie, but it's mafia adjacent, if you want to call it that.

Phil DiCriscio (44:09.326)
No.

Phil DiCriscio (44:14.286)
Okay. Is James in that?

Phil DiCriscio (44:23.63)
Okay, yeah.

Chad (44:24.915)
It's about these two mooks in New York who decide that they need to score and, you know, they try to rob this, this, you know, low grade mob boss because they find out that he has all this cash sitting in a safe and they team up with this old guy who's a safe cracker. And it's just like this like crime caper mob.

Phil DiCriscio (44:38.414)
Okay.

Chad (44:44.165)
hit thing gone wrong. But it's it's Mickey Rourke, young Mickey Rourke and young Eric Roberts. And it's one of my favorite movies of all time. Like you need you need to see it. The Pope of Greenwich Village.

Phil DiCriscio (44:48.526)
Yep. Okay.

What? What's that called again? Okay, I'll watch it after this. That's awesome. Actually, speaking of being a Sopranos fan, I'm a little pissed off because the diner at the end of the finale, they're renovating and they sold the Sopranos.

Chad (45:00.201)
Yes.

Phil DiCriscio (45:16.526)
And so many people have sent that to me. It's like, Philly, I got the booth. And I'm like, it's an auction for 60 grand. I'm a teacher. Won't happen. But I'm seeing with Juby where I lose this summer and a friend of mine lives in North Jersey and she's gonna show me all the soprano spots and all the things, you know, drive by Sand Dolls or the Bing. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (45:21.354)
Hahaha.

Chad (45:25.993)
Hahaha.

Chad (45:37.546)
Nice. I just drove past that in Dallas today. I had to go that way for the errand that I told you about. We were right on Route 17. It's every time I drive by there.

Phil DiCriscio (45:46.958)
I have no interest in going to a strip club but yeah. Hey it's the Bing! And it's a piece of land. Yeah, yeah. But uh, no I can't go to Holston's and I guess I can still get onion rings but the booth's not there. Like, about to cancel this Doobie Brothers trip I'm not going to but it just ticks me off. Why would you sell that? Like that's a thing. It's...

Chad (45:52.874)
just pulling up and taking a picture. Yeah, that's it. That's it.

Phil DiCriscio (46:16.334)
show man that's fair it's

Chad (46:18.282)
I never got into it and I probably should revisit it. I've seen some, I've watched a little bit here and there, but I just, I couldn't get into it where I had to watch the whole thing. But by the way, I was the same way with Breaking Bad. And then I met somebody, a friend of mine was like, you need to watch Breaking Bad. Just suffer through the first couple episodes. I know it's like, you you think you know what it's about, but you really don't. And now I've watched that series three times all the way through and I've watched Better Call Saul.

Phil DiCriscio (46:37.23)
Yeah.

Chad (46:47.082)
probably twice all the way through, so...

Phil DiCriscio (46:48.984)
That's... I saw... I've watched Breaking Bad about twice. Better Call Saul, I actually never finished it last season. Where I was in my life and moving around. I never got the... But I love it. It's wonderful. I've done... I've done some Breaking Bad ex Steely Dan memes with Jive Miguel.

Chad (46:53.095)
Yeah.

Chad (47:05.065)
So I might have to revisit.

Chad (47:10.823)
Yes.

Phil DiCriscio (47:15.758)
Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's, it's, look, people don't have to like certain series, but The Sopranos makes me think. I was watching it earlier and I was just like, I'm thinking about me and myself and other people and it's one of those things. It's, it's, it's, it's wonderful.

Chad (47:35.018)
I hear you. So what's your next?

Phil DiCriscio (47:37.742)
So my last album...

And I think timeline wise, so first would have been Duki.

Phil DiCriscio (47:50.158)
school.

Phil DiCriscio (47:56.718)
I was trying to err err late high school.

branch out, listen to some more jazz, um, Asia within the past year and most recently an album I've always liked.

Phil DiCriscio (48:13.102)
into Stevie Wonder's songs in the key of life.

Chad (48:19.594)
Yes, excellent choice.

Phil DiCriscio (48:23.886)
It's one of those very few albums that have a 33 and a 30 on it and a classic album. Not saying that denotes quality, but if this album has it in Asia, say something. The peak of Stevie Wonder's, I mean we know Stevie Wonder from the hits. Stevie Wonder, Stevie Wonder, he is a James Brown, he's a Michael Jackson, he is a...

It is a double album plus an EP.

So it's about, what does this come out to be? Two hours, not two hours, hour and a half of music. So famously, Stevie Wonder had this perfect run, starting with, so he was signed to Motown, right? And he did, he did like a, when he was a kid, he was signed to Motown. So he did like a Ray Charles tribute album, because they were both blind and kind of had the same range.

Chad (49:01.514)
something. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Phil DiCriscio (49:26.286)
all the things. But he had, you know, hits and it was the Motown Machine where like the album kind of didn't matter but it was the hits. And Stevie was so sure of his talent, his soul -wringing abilities that he saved a lot of his kind of top tunes until his contract ran out with Motown. And Barry Gordy begged to hire him back because...

I mean this was in the 70s, like the Supremes were kind of dead. All these Motown groups that, you know, Michael Jackson was doing the Michael Jackson thing, he was out of Motown, I mean he still did some Jackson records. But Stevie Wonder had these tunes and was kind of saving them. And then by 1972 when he turned 21 his contract with Motown expired.

Chad (50:08.65)
you

Phil DiCriscio (50:24.462)
And Barry Gorey was trying to hire him back and Stevie was playing coy and eventually they hired him back and then he did run of five or six albums. 72 was Music of My Mind and also Talking Book, Talking Book having Superstition on it. Then it was Intervisions in 73. And then it was fulfilling Mrs. First Finale in 73.

Phil DiCriscio (50:57.92)
76 so there was a there was a two -year gap came out with songs of the key of life a title that Stevie Wonder thought beforehand and tried to write songs

describe the human experience. And there's songs about life on this album, songs about death, songs about isn't she lovely is not about a woman, but it's about his daughter. And if you listen to the album cut, it's like six minutes and you hear like, he's like giving her a bath and she's laughing and there's, it's beautiful. And as someone who is not a parent, I think it's beautiful. I can only imagine.

Chad (51:27.848)
Yeah.

Chad (51:36.265)
I have no appreciation for it now. I never liked it when I was younger because I was like, what the hell is this? I knew it was about his daughter and couldn't relate, but once you have that kid, the whole world changes.

Phil DiCriscio (51:48.782)
that and as someone who is single.

songs.

speak to the human experience and the fact it's 12 peas.

Chad (51:58.025)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (52:01.902)
And like I said, a seven inch EP. Like it is packed full of songs and there's a like 30 page booklet that comes with it that is like the lyrics and it's laid out like the way he sings lyrics. So if there's like some space there will be like in the lyrics he will, there's space.

Phil DiCriscio (52:32.014)
It's.

Phil DiCriscio (52:37.678)
It's perfection. It is his artistic statement. And it has everything, like if you're a human, this is how.

Phil DiCriscio (52:51.84)
Is it his best?

It's not like a birth of the cool where that's not his best, but it erupted.

Chad (53:09.193)
It's a landmark album. There's no denying that it's just a timeless classic and it lands on everybody's top 100 list for a reason.

Phil DiCriscio (53:10.094)
It's.

Phil DiCriscio (53:20.846)
So this was 76. Could you imagine being a record consumer in 1976? Picking up this in the same year you pick up the Royal Scam?

Chad (53:26.281)
Ha ha.

Yep, exactly.

Phil DiCriscio (53:33.134)
I'm pretty sure I've listened to this and the Royal Scan back to back. It's like, goddamn, the 70s were kinda lit.

Chad (53:39.625)
Yeah, that was those those few years are like 74 to 77 man, like you just can't that'll never happen again.

Phil DiCriscio (53:47.63)
No. And I've listened to Stevie past 76 and it's so great. I mean, he's a consummate artist, but it's not the same. And you'll listen to his early stuff, his pop stuff, and it's great, but it's not like a signed seal delivered.

Chad (53:59.131)
you

Phil DiCriscio (54:09.58)
I don't know as I wish oh I love songs where artists are paying to each other artists sir Duke Yeah

Chad (54:17.384)
I love Sir Duke, by the way. It's maybe not his deepest song lyrically, but...

Chad (54:25.831)
Yeah, I love that. I remember it being on the radio when I was a kid. You know, it wasn't current because I was only four, but like when I was probably 10, 11 years old and, you used to sit and tape stuff with my boombox off the radio. I remember that song always coming on and me having on a couple of different cassettes and stuff. And as an older adult and, you know, picking up the bass guitar, I don't know how many years ago.

That song always makes it onto my playlist of, you know, songs I'd love to be able to play on the bass, but just can never probably get there.

Phil DiCriscio (54:56.142)
No, no and the amazing thing about Stevie Wonder is and you can look in the booklet on at least on his golden run right those those four years or so He wasn't the musician

Chad (55:10.039)
Yeah, he plays like every instrument.

Phil DiCriscio (55:13.006)
Every, aside from horns, but most of the tracks on this album.

Phil DiCriscio (55:25.306)
He's the like it will say musicians and it would say Stevie Wonder and that's not not like that's true. He's so talented and You listen to us her degree listener and I wish the drums are a little

Chad (55:39.368)
you

Phil DiCriscio (55:42.414)
that Stevie. Could he have hired a Steve Gad? Yes, could he have hired Bernard Purdy? But it's some of the sloppiness is the humanity. You know, as much as we we love Steely Dan or Yacht Rock bands for their perfection, it's like a double album plus plus a 45. And the drums are a little sloppy. The bass is a little

Chad (55:49.096)
Drums perfect.

Chad (55:53.402)
Right.

Chad (56:02.508)
Right.

But that's okay because they fit the vibe, they fit the song, right? And that's the thing. Yeah, I would go see him, yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (56:11.254)
It's... It's... It's... I'm not sure if I will ever see Stevie Wonder in my lifetime. He's obviously still alive and healthy, and God bless that. I mean, if he does one more tour, I'm there. It's the same thing about Steely Dan. I didn't want to spend $300 to see them open for the Eagles, because I'm not an Eagles fan. I'm not an Eagles fan, not a Beatles fan.

The most toxic silly Dan fan on the air

Phil DiCriscio (56:48.526)
was actually supposed to see Michael Jackson remember when right before he died he announced the the tour and my parents split up I lived with my dad and mom you know I see her on the weekends or whatever and money with her was tight at the time and she made it we're all good now and things are good but she was like she looked at me I was

Chad (56:54.052)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (57:12.43)
I was such a dick. I was such an asshole when I was a teenager. But she was like, we're seeing Michael Jackson. And she saved up and bought the Michael Jackson tickets or had it. And then I remember, you know, I was at her house for the weekend and my sister raised me up and she's like, Michael Jackson is dead. What are you talking about? And that's the part of my thing is to see these...

Chad (57:12.967)
you

Chad (57:18.055)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Chad (57:24.749)
Oh, that's cool. Yeah.

Chad (57:35.609)
hahahaha

Phil DiCriscio (57:41.87)
I don't like concerts, I don't like crowds, I don't like people, I... And... You know, I'll tell people, you're a musician, I'm like... I play tuba, I'm in the back and it's dark and... I play whole notes. No.

Chad (57:42.215)
Yeah, me too.

Chad (57:55.078)
I have no problem playing and being on stage in front of people. I did it, you know, a lot, but I'm not a big live music fan. I don't like the people and the crowds and the, you know, I mean, I've gone to a bunch of shows and I'll make myself go for something that I really want to go see. But nine times out of 10, I've actually bailed on stuff that I bought tickets for. I feel bad, but.

Phil DiCriscio (58:12.182)
Yeah. I am, uh, no, I'm the same way. I, uh, but I'm trying to see, like, those legendary acts. Like, I would love to see Stevie Wonder. Uh, Christopher Cross is actually coming to, uh, I live five minutes away from Hershey, P .A., and he's doing a tour with someone, and I don't think he's the headliner. But I'm just waiting for a check to cash, and I'll go see Christopher Cross, you know, see if -

Chad (58:25.156)
Yeah, exactly.

Okay. I hear you. Yeah, sure.

Phil DiCriscio (58:43.726)
But it's it's it kind of started with that Michael Jackson, but I've seen kiss I saw Iron Maiden a couple times fan hailing like If it's not about the the art I just want to see like I want to say I saw them like I'm not a huge Rolling Stones fan if they do one more tour I might just fork over the money To see the Rolling Stones It's one of those I saw kiss and I was

Chad (58:58.374)
Yeah. Yeah, I saw the stones. I don't know if I go see them again.

Phil DiCriscio (59:13.23)
huge kiss fan in high school because I was I thought I was edgy and I dressed up like Paul Stanley and and you know they do the thing Gene Simmons ascends to the the rafters and I thought they were gonna do God of Thunder cuz he's heard the bass solo they end up doing like shout out loud or something and me and my buddy who are 12 and just like what the fuck we still we he lives in Nevada now so he only visits every everyone so we still talk about

It's like we're that time that kiss like honey dick to us with God of thunder But no, that's that's you know, I want to see Stevie Wonder Miles Davis died before I was born I saw Van Halen with David Leveraugh. It wasn't great. I Want to see Steely Dan, you know, I just Cuz I you know

Chad (59:52.898)
Yeah. Right. Yep.

Phil DiCriscio (01:00:08.576)
Yes Does he yeah, oh, okay. Hell yeah. Yeah That's weird cuz they are there they were underground

Chad (01:00:09.186)
Well, let me let me tie Stevie Wonder back to one of the albums or one of the artists that I talked about last week So he actually plays the harmonica part on night and gales by prefab sprout Which is not on the album that we talked about but it's on their next album Yeah, their album from from Langley Park to Memphis. There's a song called night and gales and I don't know how I need to do some internet research I don't know how this happened like how this came to be but apparently they they they

I think it was the Thomas Dolby connection. I think Dolby knows a lot of people and I think he worked with Stevie because Stevie's into like synths and all the electronic stuff. And I think maybe there was a connection there, I don't know. So yeah, so interesting kind of loop back to the prefabs.

Phil DiCriscio (01:00:38.286)
Yeah

Phil DiCriscio (01:00:52.156)
Yeah, but you're going to talk about an album that's surprised

Chad (01:00:59.397)
Yeah. So let's, let's take that and run with it.

Phil DiCriscio (01:01:03.054)
Yes.

Chad (01:01:04.678)
specific question to ask you about that. So my final album and the last one for this episode is Siamese Dream by the Smashing Pumpkins from 1993. Smashing Pumpkins, I didn't know who they were. I want to give a hundred percent credit and I think I've already said this on a previous episode but it bears repeating. My friend Amy, Amy if you're

Phil DiCriscio (01:01:13.646)
. . . .

Chad (01:01:31.334)
was instrumental in me discovering so much music because her tastes were just like light years ahead of mine. You know, I mean, I like to think, yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (01:01:38.958)
We all have that friend. We all have that friend that, that friend who turned me off to the Smiths and Joy Division and yeah. We have that friend.

Chad (01:01:45.871)
That was Amy. That was Amy to me. And I like to think that I turned her on to stuff too, and I think I did, but for the most part it was 80 % her making me tapes and playing shit for me and being like, you gotta listen to this. And I was like, ooh, like Velvet Underground, Tom Waits, I didn't have an exposure to those bands until she played them or put them on a mixtape for me. So anyway, when Smashing Pumpkins' first album came out, the album Gish,

Phil DiCriscio (01:01:57.216)
you

Phil DiCriscio (01:02:10.886)
Was that 92? 91? When was Nevermind? Was that also 91? Okay, okay. I feel like we need contact. And I know they're not grunge, but I feel like...

Chad (01:02:14.343)
91, 91, so 91 also, yeah. That sort of kicked off the whole grunge explosion.

Chad (01:02:25.373)
Well, they're grunge adjacent and I think they get lumped in. Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (01:02:30.382)
I thought they were grinch man and then you yell

And I agree with you, I listen, I -

Phil DiCriscio (01:02:42.35)
Someone who's born 95.

era from VH1, you know, being a music nerd, but, but, well, let's see what you're wearing. That is, that is a dope, that is a dope grunge. That is, that's white. No, so, so not, 91 was, was Gish, yes. This was 93, I have.

Chad (01:02:46.407)
Right. TV. Yeah, I flew my flannel shirt for a few years, you know, let's just say that. But well, yeah, right. I mean.

Chad (01:03:04.072)
It's it's grunge light. So yeah, 91 was Gish and Siamese Dream was 93. So 91 I pick up Amy in my car. I don't know where we're going out somewhere or whatever. And she pops whatever cassette I had out of my cassette deck in my car and she puts tape in I'm like, what are you putting in? And she goes, just listen. She's like, this is gonna blow your mind. Just just shut up and listen. And the opening.

Phil DiCriscio (01:03:21.664)
you

Chad (01:03:33.029)
lines to I Am One, the first track on Gish comes on and I'm like, huh. And like immediately it just like goes into this like just amazing riff and like this heavy guitars. And I'm like, whoa, like who the hell is this? She's like some new band Smashing Pumpkins. I'm like, wow, like this is awesome. So, you know, we listened to however much of the album, you know, was in the car ride. And then I think I either borrowed her tape or had her, you know, dub me a copy or whatever. And I was just like, yeah, stole it. And, um,

Phil DiCriscio (01:03:42.858)
you

Phil DiCriscio (01:03:50.03)
Stole

Chad (01:04:03.59)
Yeah, I probably did. I might've just said like, you know, you can't have this back until I'm done with it. Right. Yeah. So anyway, really fell in love with the band and, and, um, I was, I remember being really excited for Siamese dream to come out because, you know, I was just waiting for the, like, you know, more, more music from this band. So Siamese dream comes out. It's 93. I'm 21 years old. I'm your typical angsty, you know, 21 year old and.

Phil DiCriscio (01:04:07.726)
Here's five bucks and forget about it. I've done that.

Chad (01:04:33.966)
Yeah, haven't we all? And Smashing Pumpkins, like I said, it wasn't grunge. It was more like a blend of like, if you read interviews and listen to Billy Corgan, you know, he likes the Smiths and the Cure and Joy Division, but he also likes Black Sabbath and Zeppelin. Like he was like reared on all this like sad.

Phil DiCriscio (01:04:34.926)
Yeah

Phil DiCriscio (01:04:52.192)
you

Phil DiCriscio (01:04:57.774)
you

Chad (01:05:00.868)
emo kind of music, but also hard rock, right? So he kind of perfectly marries those two things together, I think, in the Pumpkins sound. And they do what Led Zeppelin used to describe as like, you know, heavy and light, right? So Zeppelin would have this beautiful acoustic intro to a song, and then it would just take a left turn and, you know, be like the hardest thing you've ever heard for the... And the Pumpkins had that same dynamic, right? And they took it further in Siamese Dream. So...

Phil DiCriscio (01:05:04.238)
Yes.

Phil DiCriscio (01:05:20.142)
Yep. I noted that. I heard that and I loved it.

Chad (01:05:30.318)
Siamese Dream, the band, I don't wanna say they were on the verge of breaking up, but I think they were not happy as a band. I think that they started to get some notoriety.

Phil DiCriscio (01:05:38.478)
Well...

Chad (01:05:41.73)
Billy wasn't happy with the musicianship of Darcy Retzky, who was the bass player and James Zha, who was the second guitar player. And I think he just started playing a lot of things himself. So I think they would come in and lay down tracks and he would just like they'd go home and he'd stay in the studio and rerecord his parts himself because he wanted to play them a certain way or whatever. So he pissed off the band members, I think, except for Jimmy Chamberlain, who is the perfect drummer for that kind of music or whatever. But so there was this...

Phil DiCriscio (01:06:08.43)
Wow. The rhythm section on this album is insane. That's in my notes and we'll get to that.

Chad (01:06:12.294)
Yes, so whether it's Billy playing bass, whether it's actually Darcy, I don't know, but Jimmy Chamberlain, his drumming is like, on fucking real. He's one of my favorite drummers. His meter is unmatched. I mean, you could set your watch by the dude. The hi -hat part on Cherub Rock when it kicks in after the first few bars or whatever, the first intro.

Phil DiCriscio (01:06:32.398)
tight

Phil DiCriscio (01:06:42.414)
Today, I noted great drumming, aero, cymbals with a big box around it. Like just the nuance.

Chad (01:06:43.494)
Yes.

Chad (01:06:49.126)
Hahaha!

Chad (01:07:00.39)
But his touch is like, he reminds me of Bonham where Bonham was the heaviest, hardest hitting drummer, but he had such a light touch and he could swing when he wanted to. And I think Chamberlain's got that same, you know, he was brought up, I think his father was like a jazz musician or whatever.

Phil DiCriscio (01:07:06.54)
Yes.

Chad (01:07:18.118)
So I think he played in his dad's like jazz band when he was a teenager So he's got that that side of his playing where yeah, he's totally got feel. So anyway, perfect marriage for me of heavy -ass guitars brilliant recording and production by Billy and and Butch Vig, by the way, who's a genius And just the lyrics like, you know, those lyrics were at a time in my life when I was going through some shit

Phil DiCriscio (01:07:23.084)
He has feel. And I... Yes.

Chad (01:07:43.43)
and you know it's that they still resonate like they still hit me in a certain way today so.

Phil DiCriscio (01:07:50.958)
said before this have not been a smash bump is a fan which is weird I've always been

for some reason.

I've read Listen to the Circle Jerks, then Nirvana, which is fun, you know, it's music.

So something about that sound never appealed to me. I said on the last podcast we did that Billy Corgan is only relevant to my life because he owns the National Wrestling Alliance. But as with all the albums that you've shared, which I have loved and need to revisit when I have more time, I listened to this and just said I'll play it, I'll look at the lyrics and write notes.

Chad (01:08:31.43)
Right.

Phil DiCriscio (01:08:49.614)
It's still not my style. It's a little, it's not punky enough for me to gravitate toward, but I can appreciate the production. I wrote notes for every song.

There's some group there's some the one I really liked Geek USA That's a cool But I made notes a lot of these tracks are like equivalent to like groove metal for me like very Pantera adjacent guitar who's that lead guitarist cuz he is Insane that's him doing all the solos He can play

Chad (01:09:03.622)
or stand out tracks for you.

Chad (01:09:11.11)
Yes, I think that's my favorite song on the album. It has to be.

Chad (01:09:21.414)
Yeah, I could see that.

Chad (01:09:26.053)
It's Corrigan. Most of the leads are Corrigan. I don't know how much lead E -ha plays. Yeah, he's a motherfucker on guitar.

Phil DiCriscio (01:09:33.262)
That is... yeah. And the rhythm section, like you said, this might be mostly choreo on bass. This is very much their gacho album, where one person takes control. But I... And this is a long album, this is over an hour. And I was not expecting that. Like most albums are 35 minutes, an average length of a...

Chad (01:09:43.447)
you

Phil DiCriscio (01:10:02.862)
Casual Symphony. But I saw an hour and I'm like, okay, let's just do it. And it detained me. Well, I was trying to listen to it throughout my work day, so I had to stop. So it was too listen.

Phil DiCriscio (01:10:19.31)
Great playing, great song writing, lyrics, hit. Like I said, not my ideal sound, but what I really appreciate about this album, it did not feel like an hour. Like, there are some songs that are shorter, you know, you're three minutes, four minutes more, and then, you know, So -ma's six and a half minutes I've written down. I love that song, and then...

Chad (01:10:42.021)
Oh, I love that song too.

Phil DiCriscio (01:10:46.688)
Silverfuck is is almost nine minutes and it doesn't feel like nine minutes it the bit yeah, it's it's and now I'm almost not confused, but I'm almost like second -guessing my Opinions about some groups like is Phil could Phil be a grunge guy probably not but I just I The playing is out of this world the songwriting and you know the songs about breakups and sadness and

Chad (01:10:51.013)
No, it builds, yeah.

Chad (01:11:05.957)
Well

Phil DiCriscio (01:11:16.642)
I'm 28 almost 29 and high. So, you know, it's about to hit summer. So Smiths are going to come on full blast. But what a great. Like I said, not my style. But ton of respect. Ton of respect. Would I see them live? I would see them live probably. But like Geek USA, so like, come on.

Chad (01:11:19.813)
hahahaha

Chad (01:11:40.805)
I'm not gonna lie, they're not great life. Yeah, Geeky was saying so much.

Phil DiCriscio (01:11:46.99)
Yes, yes quiet Hummer today being one of the big hits chair rock being on my guitar your songs. That's so I heard chair Brock I Was like I played this on the ps2 like 10 years ago And I wrote guitar hero 2 or 3. I can't I can't remember Like what a great like like I said not my style But like someone getting into that sound

Chad (01:11:47.556)
Soma than Gikiro I say yeah those are just yeah and then I yes.

Chad (01:12:06.181)
Hahaha!

Phil DiCriscio (01:12:16.494)
I totally recommend. Awesome. Like, I know Billy Corgan's a dick, and I know he shafted all his musicians throughout his career. He kinda fucked up the... He had a good thing with the National Wrestling Alliance and then had to fuck it up. I think that's... Yeah.

Chad (01:12:17.829)
Yeah, for sure.

Chad (01:12:34.084)
I feel like he's a little bit of a control freak and I feel like he's kind of like, you know, he's it's my way or the highway and with Smashing Pumpkins, I think at some point he was like, this is my band. Like, you know, this is the band is me and you guys are Sidemen and that pissed them off. And, you know, rightfully so because James Zha is a very talented songwriter and musician of his own right. Chamberlain, you know, he's actually got a solo project called the Jimmerlead.

Jimmy Chamberlain complex, which is kind of jazzier type. Yeah. I mean, you might be into it. Mostly instrumental. Darcy just disappeared. You know, I think there was talk of, yeah, her and E -How are together. Yeah. That's part of the, yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Phil DiCriscio (01:13:08.814)
She was dating the guitarist, correct? During the sound...

Phil DiCriscio (01:13:22.414)
I mean, I could not imagine having such a huge hit like their first...

I'm not a compo like I'm a musician, I'm not a composer. I could - I play with some of the page and the smile afterwards. I could not imagine, you know, writing.

Chad (01:13:36.356)
Me too.

Well, the funny thing is after this came Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness, which is a double album. Corgan, I think, wanted it to be a triple album, but I think the record company told him no or whatever. But that's got more of the hits and I think that's really considered to be their masterpiece or whatever. But I love that album and it's definitely up there with Siamese Dream. But for me personally, Siamese Dream is just a much better collection of songs. It's just, you know, it fits in it. Like I said, it was just at a certain point in my life. So I have this deep connection to it.

Phil DiCriscio (01:13:49.358)
That has a bunch of hits on it too, right?

Phil DiCriscio (01:14:06.83)
Yeah.

I... It's great. It's... It's one of those albums that, even though I'm not 100 % on, I think it's a 10. Because it set out what it... It's like an Asia, right? It sets out what it wants to, and it's a 10. I'm not a huge fan of Rumors by Fleetwood Mac, but I think it's a 10. In terms of...

Chad (01:14:27.363)
Me either. Yeah, agreed.

Phil DiCriscio (01:14:30.542)
Well, when they were done sleeping with each other and doing drugs, what they wanted to accomplish, it's a 10. Right? And this album, if this is what was intended, it's... Like I said, not my style. I'm not anti it. I respect it. And like all your selections, like all your selections, the Buffalo Tom, the... More of the other ones. Yeah, Prefabs. I was gonna say the planned album, but...

Chad (01:14:33.252)
hahahaha

Chad (01:14:56.016)
Pretty fab sprout. Loic Loic - Coley.

Phil DiCriscio (01:15:00.238)
Yeah, like, all I wanna do is listen to You're Living All Over Me and what's the...

Shoot oh What's the the double the double album not double nickels on dime? Something I learned today the punk album Oh shoot

One second.

Chad (01:15:29.828)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (01:15:32.274)
The Who's Gonna Do? What's the double album? Arcade, Arcade Zen, Zen Arcade. Yeah, like that's a sound I've loved, got away from coming back to and your interests or your selections have kind of kicked me in the butt to... I got a drive, you know, like most days I have a 45 minute drive so that's most of Zen Arcade so let's just do it. And...

Chad (01:15:34.436)
Oh yeah.

Chad (01:15:38.757)
songs and arcade that's a Zen arcade it's an arcade.

Chad (01:15:53.861)
Nice.

Chad (01:16:00.165)
There you go.

Phil DiCriscio (01:16:01.294)
Yeah, I just I was not looking forward to listening to Sebastian Pumpkins and now I'm kicking myself because I was like this is Wonderful. This is His his his singing his his playing of tones or timbres The rhythm section the guitar the guitar solos, which you said was mostly built

Chad (01:16:05.733)
Hahaha

Chad (01:16:11.909)
Yeah, it's really good.

Chad (01:16:23.828)
Yeah, yeah, no more to say. Oh yeah, that is the point.

Phil DiCriscio (01:16:28.076)
I hope that's the point of this podcast is to share awesome music. I came in with Asia, Dookie, Queen is Dead, Birth of the Cool, and Songs of the Key of Life. I was trying to make them different and all. You came in with selections that are very similar in some cases, but still wonderful. And that's...

Chad (01:16:43.044)
excellent choices and all important albums. Yeah.

Chad (01:16:57.828)
That's what it's all about. And you nailed it. That's what I'm trying to do with this podcast is meet people, get in their heads, see what kind of music they're into, share, learn, you know, all the things because music is life, right?

Phil DiCriscio (01:16:58.734)
I'm just...

Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (01:17:08.14)
Yeah.

Chad (01:17:12.708)
hahahaha

Phil DiCriscio (01:17:12.782)
I'm gonna try to be cheesy about it. But Stevie Wonder came out, Songs in the Key of Life, and then wrote a double album plus a four -song EP about it. And if you don't like Stevie Wonder, you being the audience, that's fine. But it's... What I do want to do with you is I want to do a big podcast on classical music, because I feel like that gets shafted because it's seen as very...

Chad (01:17:22.756)
Yeah, right.

Chad (01:17:28.484)
Yeah.

Chad (01:17:37.86)
Really?

Phil DiCriscio (01:17:42.83)
for our high nose and it's.

Chad (01:17:50.55)
when I hear them, can I tell you who wrote them or what the actual name of the pieces? No, but...

Phil DiCriscio (01:17:50.656)
Yeah. No. There's a lot of this with classical music and as someone from that world, I think there's...

Chad (01:17:58.82)
Yeah, for sure.

Chad (01:18:10.304)
Wow. Right, of course.

Phil DiCriscio (01:18:10.356)
I Jewish people. Things I don't agree with, but like they were humans, they were music in a certain style, because that was the style. What was the thing from The Simpsons wearing the pine cone from the belt? Abe Simpson? Oh, it was like, Abe Simpson on The Simpsons was talking about something about, when he was a kid he wore a pine cone from a belt.

Chad (01:18:26.98)
Oh, I don't know that one.

Phil DiCriscio (01:18:39.278)
He's like, as was the style at the time. I tried to offend him, to barter, whatever, but no, I mean, these composers were just people in a certain style. And I would love to wax poetically about, you know, certain things. And because I think classical music is seen as, it's seen as not approachable or unapproachable for a lot of people.

Chad (01:18:41.701)
Ha ha.

Chad (01:18:53.957)
All right, let's plant it.

Chad (01:19:06.342)
Yeah, like high brow. Yeah, totally.

Phil DiCriscio (01:19:08.012)
Hi bro. And it's not like you have me doing this shit. I'm just, I say fuck after every word. And I, you know, I have a playlist of Wagner followed by the Smiths followed by Joy Division followed by, you know, Bruckner and it's all good. I would like to just share that music. And I think your podcast, and if you're onto it, that's fine. We can talk about it. Yacht Rock.

Chad (01:19:11.174)
hahahaha

Chad (01:19:29.733)
Yeah, I know. I think that'd be a good episode. And listen, like we said, I like to learn stuff and this is making me stretch out in new directions too, right? Because people are bringing me things that are challenging and things that I haven't heard before and I'm into it. So.

Phil DiCriscio (01:19:36.046)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And the same thing. I guess I like to smash the pumpkins now. And that's cool. And like, I'm not anti anything. I just, I, we have our own training arrow. Yeah. And that's, that's, yeah. I don't know. Yeah.

Chad (01:19:44.901)
Yes. Right. Just never cross your mind. Yeah.

Chad (01:19:55.971)
All right, well, that's good. So I'm happy that we came to that conclusion. Well, should we wrap it up?

Phil DiCriscio (01:19:59.694)
Yeah.

Phil DiCriscio (01:20:03.276)
Yeah.

Chad (01:20:05.317)
All right, we'll have to plan the classical music thing. We'll have to put maybe a little bit more planning into what we're gonna cover so I can, yeah, yeah, yeah, great. All right, cool. Well, thanks again, Phil. This has been amazing again. Love having you.

Phil DiCriscio (01:20:12.43)
I'll give you some listening and... You had no big deal. Nothing. Yeah! I love being on here, love chatting with you. Yapping, as the kids say. This is what, two hours of yapping? No! No! Not even an hour thirty! Okay, good. Not even! Ask me about Katie Lied and I'll extend this.

Chad (01:20:25.765)
Yes.

Chad (01:20:30.854)
Not even. Yeah. We went a little shorter this time. Yeah. I think all together. We'll save that for your podcast because we have to cover what we're supposed to do. Lois Galcho, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. Right.

Phil DiCriscio (01:20:43.078)
Yeah, you and I lost Goucho with Victoria's Asia with Louie, uh, Katie Lied, uh, with...

Kenzie we're doing Countdown to Ecstasy and I still need someone for um, Can't Buy Thrill. I want um...

Chad (01:21:00.358)
Hmm, okay.

Phil DiCriscio (01:21:08.398)
I can't think of his real name. Uh, the Danvault. Uh, Zomaris. I, yeah. And then, and then with, with, with SR, we're supposed to do the reunion albums. I need to finish that up. But I need someone. Can't buy a throng with Zomari. But yeah, you and I. Lost Gaucho, especially with the, um, what was the camera at home about you? The new... What a great... What a great tune. What? What's the line? Bitch Girls?

Chad (01:21:11.229)
That was Amore.

Chad (01:21:28.262)
Yes. Yeah, the new find.

Phil DiCriscio (01:21:38.254)
spend their dollar or whatever just oh anyway that is for the city of phil podcast uh nice chatting with you as always

Chad (01:21:43.909)
I know. We'll get there. Absolutely. Same here.

Yeah, you too, Phil.

Phil DiCriscio (01:21:54.506)
Enjoy some Miles Davis or whatever.

Chad (01:21:56.805)
Yeah, I'm gonna go check that out. Absolutely. All right. Talk to you soon. Thanks. All right. Bye.

Phil DiCriscio (01:22:00.718)
Bye.