Episode 13 transcript

Note: this transcript is AI-generated, and as such, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.

Chad (00:01.608)
Hello and welcome back again to the Aural Mess Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm with Mackenzie Horne again today. Hey Mackenzie.

Mackenzie (00:09.526)
Hello, Chad, how are you?

Chad (00:11.38)
Um, great. Thanks. I'm so looking forward to this conversation because, you know, we're going to finish what we started last time and, uh, get some smash or pass action going on Fagen and Becker's solo albums.

Mackenzie (00:24.502)
I love it. Let's do it. We've been talking about it. The sequel names for this episode, ad nauseam for the last couple of weeks. So let's go.

Chad (00:33.207)
Yes, I think the one we landed on, it was the Electric Boogaloo, I can't get that one out of my head. Yeah, it has to be. And ironically, I saw that movie, you know, when it came out as a kid. So you know, a little nostalgia for me there.

Mackenzie (00:37.118)
Electric Boogaloo. Yeah.

Mackenzie (00:47.134)
Absolutely. I thought as I was getting ready to get back to my apartment today, I was like, is there like a play on Chaddington too, that I feel like could also be a strong contender, but Electric Boogaloo is just so firmly ingrained in the psyche at this point that it would feel a little improper to deviate.

Chad (00:55.693)
hahahaha

Chad (01:04.42)
I hear that. Yeah, one of my friends actually calls me Chaddington and it's just, you know, it's a love hate thing. I love it, but I also hate it. But, you know. I don't know. Just kind of stuck.

Mackenzie (01:11.655)
I can't possibly imagine why.

Chad (01:17.34)
All right, so picking up where we left off, I think we said that we were gonna just quickly talk about the two Steely Dan live albums, right? So we have Alive in America and we have Northeast Corridor. So why don't you kick us off, Mackenzie? What about Alive in America? Alive in America. Yeah.

Mackenzie (01:34.394)
Super Smash Brothers super duper hard smash

If by virtue and I think we talked about this maybe the last time that we chatted, but I mean, there's so much great stuff on there and we talked about like the live Bodhisattva and how hard it went in the paint and my sort of standout track, which I think you'll understand and empathize with that cover and that rendition and version of Third World Man is so beautiful and haunting and like it's down tempo just a little bit, but I think it makes it just a completely different

Chad (02:00.989)
Yes.

Mackenzie (02:09.295)
song and like the horror of sort of middle class opulence and condition. I just, you know, I think it's great. Oh, hold on a second. We've got a visitor. Oh my God. Please no. Just, just make sure you credit her appropriately or her lawyers will have my ass. So yes.

Chad (02:21.436)
Alright. Oh, hi!

Chad (02:32.057)
Yes, union rules and all that, I got it. Not a speaking appearance though, not yet anyway.

Mackenzie (02:38.41)
Not yet, not yet to be determined.

Chad (02:41.02)
So yeah, I agree on Third World Man. It takes that song to a whole other level for me. Pleasantly surprised by that when I'd heard it. I didn't pay much attention to that album when it came out, but again, like everything else, Steely Dan, I've sort of retroactively just gained appreciation for a lot of things that I maybe didn't see the first time around.

Mackenzie (03:02.066)
Yeah, yeah. And I have this grand vision of one Halloween doing the cover as a couple's costume, which, you know, if I'm lucky, maybe two people in a room of 500 people would get. But, you know, I just, you know, I love the album. I love the packaging. I love sort of the depth and breadth and, you know, just sort of the survey of the band at that time, which was absolutely insane. So, yeah, it speaks for itself.

Chad (03:29.008)
Yeah, for sure. So I am also a firm smash on that album. Great. Why don't we go on to Northeast Corridor? I'll take this one. As much as it pains me to say this, I'm gonna have to pass. I feel like a live album without Walter is sacrilege.

Mackenzie (03:53.258)
Yeah.

I will agree with you. I think there's definitely some cool parts of the album. I mean, this touring band is excellent. Obviously Walter's absence aside, but Keith Carlock just levels the neighborhood top to bottom. John Harrington sounds as good as he's ever sounded. And RIP Jim Beard. The playing on is beautiful.

Chad (04:12.52)
Yes.

Chad (04:20.325)
Oh, I know, man, yeah.

Mackenzie (04:25.368)
I love that the Danettes are given so much love on this album and have so much space. So you know, it's kind of like it's kind of like having sex in your childhood bedroom. Like I just can't quite stomach like the idea of actually going through with it. But I have a lot of endearment for this record. And so I will I will reverently pass.

Chad (04:45.116)
Yeah, okay. Well, again, I'm glad we agree there. Yeah, it's like all the things you said, like the musicianship, this current iteration of the band is probably my favorite, I think, because of all the players. You know, I can make arguments for every era of the touring bands, but yeah. I mean, yeah, enough said. I think enough said.

Mackenzie (05:07.551)
It's funny because when I think yeah when Northeast Corridor and the Nightfly came out simultaneously

the it was, you know, in correspondence with the most recent tour. And so they had this thing where if you bought totally, if you bought tickets to go see the tour, they would send you a CD copy of either, you know, Northeast Corridor or the Nightfly. And so I had already purchased both of those on vinyl by the time I bought tickets to go see this latest tour, whenever I went to go see them in Jersey. And so they delivered me these CDs. And it's funny because, you know,

I have a way of playing CDs, but you know, most people, the cars don't even come with CD players anymore. So I thought it was an interesting marketing mechanism, but those things sat in my mailbox for like a rainy day occasion. I was like, I'm just gonna keep these here where they'll be safe. And I know that I will have to give these to somebody someday. And lo and behold, they were eventually gifted to other people who did not purchase the vinyl copies. So, but yeah, lots of, they're spreading the love, you know, which is definitely what Donald is known.

for is

Chad (06:17.606)
Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Yeah, it's funny that was such like a boomer driven marketing angle, right? Like here's a CD. Yeah, so.

Mackenzie (06:28.535)
I remember that and I also remember the huge Amy Mann kerfuffle that happened. Oh my god. Yeah, insane.

Chad (06:34.075)
Oh yeah.

Chad (06:38.512)
I was really excited for that. You know, like I, at some point had planned on going to see them, still haven't gotten around to it, you know, I need to, but, um, the whole Amy man thing just blew me away when it, when they announced it and then I was really pissed off when they kind of pulled the rug out from under it and I think, you know, so was she, cause I guess, you know, it was like news to her just like everybody else, but yeah, she's, she's another artist that I love, um, ever since till Tuesday and beyond, you know, her first solo album was, was in rotation with me for a long time, still is, you know.

Mackenzie (06:44.007)
Mm-hmm.

Mackenzie (06:51.73)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (06:57.993)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (07:07.454)
Yeah, yeah, it's taken me a long time to come around to her. And interestingly enough, I think the thing that finally put me over the edge, she did a cover of Leonard Cohen's Avalanche for the opening credits of a true crime documentary called

I'll Be Gone in the Dark, which was about the Golden State Killer, and it was a really excellent true crime series. And like, it was just so much an iconic part of the show that I was really kind of ambivalent towards her before that, but after that I was just like, oh my god, I gotta get hip, and I'm like the last person at this party, but here I am.

Chad (07:25.137)
Oh wow.

Chad (07:44.529)
The Magnolia soundtrack did a lot for me too. I was a casual fan, loved that first album, but then once that thing hit, I was just obsessed with the music from that movie. And looking back, I don't remember a whole lot about the movie, but I can sing every song on the soundtrack that she did. So there you go. All right, well, let's get into the solo albums. We'll go chronologically.

Mackenzie (07:59.138)
There you go.

Chad (08:09.404)
I have a lot to say about a few of these, but so let's do Nightfly.

Mackenzie (08:11.566)
Hell yeah.

Mackenzie (08:15.278)
Uh, Smash. Um, top to bottom. Um.

Chad (08:17.32)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (08:21.658)
And I would say that the smash has become a much more enthusiastic smash within probably the last year and a half for me, because I used to I used to really only dig the first side of the record, which it feels kind of blasphemous to say, because now I love every part of it. I'm just like, how could I have not felt this way about the B side of it? But yeah, totally. Like, I just conceptually, I think it's great. I love it. It's a persistent theme throughout all of Donald's

stuff but this sort of weird like pseudo 1950s Pleasantville kind of dystopia that he paints and does it in such a way that is as funny as it is horrifying. And I mean as only he can. And IGY just like the sort of shimmering opening of this album. I mean it's just it's just perfect.

Chad (09:08.408)
as only he can.

Chad (09:17.821)
Yeah.

It is the perfect intro to an album and the perfect lead in to any song. But firm smash for me too. Again, you know, I was, it was this 82. So I was 10 when this came out. I remember hearing IGY on the radio. And again, not knowing what the hell it was about, but it was fun singing like, you know, spandex jackets and right, because it was just like a fun lyric, even if I didn't get the sort of, you know, ulterior, uh, motive meaning, but, um,

Mackenzie (09:26.551)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (09:40.755)
Yeah.

Chad (09:49.432)
And I kind of grew up with it, right? So it was one of those things where I was in college and I was listening to like Maxine and Green Flower Street and Ruby Baby and just like, you know, it didn't sound like anything else that I was into at the time, right? And it was even close, but not so much to Steely Dan for me. So.

Mackenzie (10:06.24)
Yeah.

Chad (10:07.592)
And then I kind of like forgot about it forever because you know, it just didn't really it wasn't something that I reached out to listen to. Maxime was like a mixtape or mix CD staple for a long time for me because it was just such a great song to put on, you know, it sort of went anywhere that you wanted it to go. But then, you know, again, the whole danisans thing happened and then I started revisiting all the solo albums and you know it's so much more than I think it used to be for me now.

Mackenzie (10:33.726)
Yeah, yeah, I think just as far as just technical wizardry that's going on, I mean, it's just the technical recording history of that album is insanely fascinating to me, just musically what's going on, you know, from having Marcus Miller on there, which is like just such a crazy little Easter egg. The double guitar on Greenflower Street for that last bridge, it just knocks me out every time.

Um, I was talking with someone recently, it might have been Zamori, and, uh, we were talking about there's like a moment on this album that is so unexpectedly sad for me and gets me every time and, you know, like it's not maxi in which I feel like is kind of the obvious choice because it's just it's gorgeous and lush. Um, but there's a lyric in the Nightfly whenever, you know, Lester's kind of musing to himself and he says, you know, you'll never believe it but once there was a time

Chad (11:31.357)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (11:32.34)
those lyrics just gut punch me every goddamn time. It's just so sad and so mournful. And then just to kind of pivot back into this, like, you know, I'm here doing the DJ thing. I'm smoking my cigarettes. I'm downing my Java and just trying to make it or break it and.

Chad (11:41.31)
Nah.

Mackenzie (11:49.794)
You know, and I talked with Chad about this because we had a little sidebar about this in our last conversation. Or not Chad, Phil. My apologies. My brain is sawdust right now. Hey girl! But Phil and I had talked about the fact that the cover of that album, it's really interesting because the album cover that is in the cover of the Nightfly is a Sonny Rollins record.

Chad (12:00.064)
Ha ha ha.

Chad (12:13.864)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (12:14.41)
But the record that's on the turntable is not that Sonny Rollins record. It's a it's a Riverside record. And so I've been trying to put my tinfoil hat on to figure out what album it is, whether it's like an early Miles Davis kind of thing or whatever. But I've just always thought that was an interesting aspect of the cover, that despite it being dissected and analyzed to death is not really a conversation that I've seen too much discourse on.

Chad (12:25.23)
hahahaha

Chad (12:40.38)
No, nor have I, but I was aware. And it's funny because I think.

I wonder how much attention they really put into it, right? Because like, did they, was that intentional? Was it accidental? Was, were they playing a record? Did they put something on and then Fagen said, oh no, I don't want that cover. I want Sonny Rollins. And they forgot to change the actual record because Lore has it that the original photo for that has the microphone backwards, right? Because it was like one of these old timey RCA mics or whatever. So I just wonder how much actual thought was put into that versus how much was just completely accidental.

Mackenzie (13:00.436)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (13:09.151)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (13:15.23)
Let's start a rumor and disseminate it right here, right now.

Chad (13:18.91)
Okay, you heard it here first on the Aural Mess Podcast.

Mackenzie (13:21.964)
Absolutely. You want to be in the room when it happens, everybody.

Chad (13:26.204)
I'm trying to think what else about this record. So you mentioned the recording process. It was the first like real true digital attempt, right? And you know, Roger Nichols, the god of recording was behind, I think a lot of that decision. This also features Wendell too, I believe, right? It was the sort of second coming of Wendell.

Mackenzie (13:47.276)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (13:51.8)
Some live drumming, I'm not sure, top of my head, I can't think of which tracks are which, but I'm, IGY has to be Wendell, it's too perfect. You know, the, yeah, it's the meter's just too mechanical. But it works, you know, I mean, it absolutely works with the music and trying to think what else technologically. I think those are the two big highlights, if I remember correctly.

Mackenzie (13:59.982)
precise.

Mackenzie (14:16.404)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I have to say, for a long time, I thought that, I thought Walk Between the Raindrops was a song that I hated. I was just like, this is otherwise such a good album. Like, why is this? Why is this here? But it actually took the live Nightfly that came out in correspondence with Northeast Corridor coming out for me to like really properly appreciate it. And like, I know I had mentioned Keith Karloch, but like, I keep coming back to that. And any time that he makes an appearance, it just adds so much.

to my relationship with a track. And I absolutely think that just his shuffle on that live version is what kind of put the song back in my orbit and made me fall in love with it against my better judgment and will. But.

Chad (15:01.576)
Ha ha

Mackenzie (15:03.742)
Yeah, it's an evolving relationship. And I find that the older I get, and I think we talked about this when we discussed the Royal Scam, but the older I get, the more this album makes sense to me as far as just like, wow, I had a lot of ambitions for my life and this is kind of what it's boiled down to instead. Yeah.

Chad (15:21.696)
And so it has come to this. I've been doing a lot of that lately. Yeah. But, you know, hey, it's all good things, right? Or at least I hope so.

Mackenzie (15:31.358)
Yeah, that's what we tell ourselves, yeah.

Chad (15:34.588)
That's exactly. Um, and then a song that I didn't really like as much, you know, maybe in my younger years and now I really like is the goodbye look. Um, I have this real appreciation for, uh, Fagens like Calypso numbers, if you will. Right. Like Florida room has that vibe. We'll get, we'll get there. Um, the goodbye look has that vibe, but I think it's like this sort of fifties.

Mackenzie (15:49.901)
Yeah.

Chad (16:00.432)
you know, Jersey suburbanite fantasy kind of thing, which obviously is a recurring theme, like you said, through all of his albums. But what was it about that time period that, you know, was it so exotic to think of being in Cuba and Miami and, you know, the whole tiki bar craze, right? So I just wonder how much of that, you know, he was really sort of purposely referencing versus what was sort of muscle memory for him, you know, having grown up where he did.

Mackenzie (16:26.386)
Yeah. I anytime I hear this track, I'm a huge Cold War history buff. So anytime I hear this, I think of.

There were a number of really bizarre assassination attempts on Fidel Castro's life. You know, I think something in like the 800 attempts. And those attempts varied from things like he was a voracious coffee drinker, so like putting cyanide in his coffee. He was an avid cigar smoker. So, you know, like James Bond kind of shit, like creating a like an exploding cigar. But I think that the most interesting one, it was well documented that Castro really

Chad (16:46.493)
Oh wow.

Mackenzie (17:06.66)
enjoyed sort of morning walks on the beach. Like that was a sort of unchangeable part of his routine. And so one point someone had developed an exploding seashell that would be planted along his walking route that would foreseeably explode and maim him in some horrible way. Obviously it was unsuccessful, but.

Anytime that I hear the goodbye look, I just start cycling through these kind of insane, like, Monty Python-esque assassination attempts on Fidel Castro's life.

Chad (17:37.908)
That's funny. I'm imagining this intersection between James Bond and Monty Python. That's great. That's a great visual. Big James Bond fan, by the way. That was another big part of my childhood was all those movies. I'm still obsessed to this day.

Mackenzie (17:45.223)
Oh yeah.

Mackenzie (17:53.142)
Oh my God. Oh, Chad, okay, let's sidebar for a second because I am also a huge James Bond fan. So give me either, whichever is easier for you to name on the spot, give me either your favorite Bond girl or your favorite Bond movie.

Chad (17:57.5)
Okay.

Chad (18:11.636)
Favorite Bond girl has to be Connery era Moneypenny. And I know she's not really a Bond girl, right? Like she's a Bond woman and you know, it's not even about the looks or the, you know, the sexy factor, it's just about like, she was just the perfect foil for Bond, right? And that's what he needed. He needed somebody to keep his ass in line and she did it. Right? How about you?

Mackenzie (18:18.794)
My man. She's a Bond woman.

Mackenzie (18:36.455)
Mm-hmm.

Mackenzie (18:42.15)
Uh, I gotta go Domino and I gotta go Thunderball. Um, yeah, yeah. And you know, From Russia With Love is a close second. Um...

Chad (18:46.672)
Okay, wow.

Mackenzie (18:54.894)
I also didn't I actually really loved the Daniel Craig Casino Royale. Yeah, like Mads Mikkelsen, like a perfect LaCheif. Eva Green was just like the perfect Vesper Lin. And I felt like they kind of nailed it because my issue with a lot of the James Bond movies and I talk with film buff friends ad nauseam about this kind of stuff. But.

Chad (18:59.113)
Oh, me too.

Chad (19:04.573)
Yes.

Mackenzie (19:19.75)
those movies and just the story in general have really suffered by virtue of the conclusion of the Cold War. Because you know, the sort of like Russians running around with like bizarre eye patches and you know, trying to get information for the Kremlin is not necessarily a storyline that completely works anymore. And when you combine that with the fact that when those movies first came out, it was...

Chad (19:29.379)
Yes.

Chad (19:41.834)
Right.

Mackenzie (19:48.606)
It was sort of a touristy trap kind of thing because, you know, it became a lot easier for people to commercially travel to places. And so it was like, oh my God, like James Bond's in Morocco or oh my God, he's in he's in Bermuda. Like these are places that have been so inaccessible and just like, look at this world. And now it's just a lot easier for us to go to those kinds of places, enjoy those kinds of places. So some of the travel mystique, I feel like has been, has been kind of paved over a little bit, but which is why I liked Casino Royale.

Chad (20:01.353)
Right.

Mackenzie (20:18.68)
so much because it had this really kind of retro feel to it and you know the auspices of all of this taking place in a big poker game works really well but it doesn't it doesn't feel outdated in any way.

Chad (20:28.412)
Yeah, totally.

Chad (20:32.828)
No, it brought the franchise back to modern day, right? With Roger Moore started out strong and then got really cartoony, you know, two or three movies into his tenure and then like Moonraker is the biggest piece of shit they ever.

Mackenzie (20:41.645)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (20:46.282)
It's so bad. Yeah.

Chad (20:47.884)
It's so bad, it's good. Looking back on it now, it's campy as hell. It's funny, it's fun to watch. And then you go through the Timothy Dalton and the Pierce Brosnan years. Dalton to me was never a good bond. I don't know, something about him I just couldn't get my head around. Pierce Brosnan had the Connery swagger, kind of, maybe like 80%. But he still just didn't do it for me, I don't know. So I kinda lost interest in the 90s, and then in the early 2000s and stuff.

Mackenzie (21:02.74)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (21:14.977)
Yeah.

Chad (21:17.798)
And here comes Daniel Craig. And again, first reaction was kind of like, hm, who's this guy? I don't want to watch this. And 15 minutes into Casino Royale, I was hooked. I was like, all right, this is it. Bond's back. This is awesome.

Mackenzie (21:22.05)
Disco? Yeah.

Mackenzie (21:29.438)
Yeah, yeah, it makes me really wish that they had saved GoldenEye for a Daniel Craig film. I because I think the storyline of GoldenEye is so great. I don't know that again, I don't know that it would have worked, you know, after, you know, 1990. But, you know, I would have really enjoyed to see him in that performance. We didn't mention George Lazenby and there's probably a reason for that.

Chad (21:35.2)
Yes

Chad (21:44.564)
Right?

Chad (21:52.772)
hahahaha

Chad (21:57.04)
one movie and done right. And it's funny because I always thought for years that he would that was the first movie but it wasn't it was the second one right. Connery did one then they flipped over to Lazenby and then clearly had made a mistake and then I guess they went back to Connery but I didn't realize that until years later but yeah, poor guy you know he was sort of way out of his element.

Mackenzie (21:58.359)
It's one and done, you know?

Mackenzie (22:12.583)
Mm-hmm.

Mackenzie (22:18.59)
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Chad (22:22.644)
Who do you think is going to be the next bond? I mean, any speculation?

Mackenzie (22:26.148)
Oh boy.

Chad (22:32.788)
Who would you like to see? Put it that way.

Mackenzie (22:34.486)
Oh man, when the Idris Elba rumors were floating around, that was a great time to be alive. I would still love to see that, but I just don't think it would behoove, I mean not that Idris Elba is old by any stretch of the imagination, but I feel like the series like...

Chad (22:37.564)
Yes. Hell, yeah.

Mackenzie (22:52.37)
at this point probably needs to invest in somebody younger, maybe not necessarily unknown, but somebody younger so they can get mileage out of them. So, I don't know.

Chad (23:02.418)
Right.

Chad (23:05.692)
Yeah, I think for longevity that makes sense. But I think, you know, I mean, I've read, I haven't read all the books. I've read maybe half of them. And if you think about Bond, his...

Mackenzie (23:13.048)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (23:16.064)
point in his career, he was a commander, right? He's not this like fresh faced 30 year old, you know, young tough guy. He's ostensibly a little bit older and a little more established. So to have somebody a little bit older, an interest elbow could play, you know, and he could play 40, right? I mean, it wouldn't be a stretch for us to think he's 40 years old. That's about where I feel like Bond should be. So I mean, like, what the hell, why not? And he'd be the perfect Bond, perfect.

Mackenzie (23:23.807)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (23:30.398)
Anything.

Mackenzie (23:37.632)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, we don't need any sort of like Adventures of Young Indiana Jones kind of thing going on. We don't we don't need that.

Chad (23:48.182)
Although, you know, given where they went with his childhood in the last few movies, which one was it where they went back to his childhood home with the caretaker? I can't think of the name of the movie is escaping me. Skyfall. Thank you. It wouldn't be a bad movie to sort of, you know, get a little peek into young James Bond, right?

Mackenzie (24:01.049)
Oh, Skyfall. Yeah.

Mackenzie (24:10.226)
Yeah, yeah, and I think it would expand the canon in an interesting way.

Chad (24:14.684)
Yeah, well, to be determined, I guess. Yeah, I wish. All right, so let's get back into Comicuread. I'll take this one. This is a big smash for me. I know it's an, oh, good!

Mackenzie (24:18.5)
I don't know. Yeah, TM trademark that idea right now, Chad. Go get your royalties.

Mackenzie (24:36.28)
Hell yeah, man, yeah!

Chad (24:39.188)
Thank you, thank you. Such an unpopular opinion. People love to hate on this album. I don't get it. From the moment it came out, and again, I was a little bit older at this point. This is 93, right? So I was 21, and when this dropped, I was a little bit more sophisticated in my musical taste. I was a little more aware of Steely Dan's oeuvre, and having lived with the Nightfly for so many years, just having any new Fagin music was fantastic. So I think the first single was Tomorrow's Girls,

Mackenzie (24:42.66)
Oh my God.

Chad (25:09.282)
out and it was like, holy shit, this is great. Right?

Mackenzie (25:11.35)
Hell yeah, hell yeah. Oh man, I'm so glad. I was really, you know.

people hate on this people hate on this album and I cannot understand it. It brings me so much joy again just like the conceptual through lines and I'm a big concept album junkie I wouldn't go so far as to say that comic period is like a traditional concept album by any stretch of the imagination but like thematically it all works really well. Like

Chad (25:18.3)
Yeah, I was waiting.

Mackenzie (25:42.55)
Tomorrow's Girls, I think, is probably the first track that I'd heard from this album that got me really into it. And of course, the kooky music video with Rick Moranis is just like, it's really charming. But Snowbound, like what a bop. Oh my God, it goes so hard. Again, just like Trans Island Skyway, what a way to open a record. Like, Fagen just nails the opening tracks. Like, say what you want about any of these albums, but like every time he nails that opening track.

Chad (25:51.502)
Yeah.

Chad (25:57.44)
Oh yeah. Yeah.

Chad (26:12.978)
Yeah, for sure.

Mackenzie (26:14.759)
But...

I mean, on the dunes, like as ridiculous as that song is, I'm just a sucker for like a good, lush, just a good lush ditty. And like it's no effort for me to enjoy it. I love this album. And you know, I, yeah. I had a copy of it in my car for years. I played the shit out of this album. I was in a car accident while listening to this album, which felt like just the most, I committed to the bit so hard.

Chad (26:35.464)
Ha ha ha.

haha

Chad (26:47.072)
That's amazing.

Mackenzie (26:47.984)
Yeah.

Chad (26:48.976)
Yeah, same with me. Like every song on this album to me is strong, you know, people. It's funny, I've had two different conversations. I think one was actually on this podcast with a previous guest and one was online with somebody else. I forget who it was, but somebody was complaining that, you know, the outro to On the Dunes is like, oh, it's so goddamn long and repetitive. And I hate it and it ruins the whole thing for me. And then somebody else was like, oh, my God, the outro on On the Dunes. It's brilliant because, you know, it goes on for so you don't want it to end.

Mackenzie (27:17.97)
You don't want it to end.

Chad (27:20.194)
It's just so funny how polarized people really are when it comes to this album.

You know, again, maybe it's because I lived it. You know, I bought it when it came out and I've had it ever since. It's just, you know, and it was, it was new Donald Fagen, which we didn't have for, you know, 11 years, right? So I feel like at that point, I appreciated it for what it was. Um, yeah. And Florida room standout track. Um, I actually, that's funny last summer, uh, before my daughter was driving, I would pick her up from school, um, most days that I was working from home. And, um, I rolled up to the car line one day with, with Florida room, just

Mackenzie (27:36.236)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Chad (27:56.458)
with the windows open. Didn't care. It's like fuck it. You know I don't I don't I don't care and the funny thing is half the people probably didn't even know what it was you know which was even better.

Mackenzie (27:58.05)
Hell yeah, cool dad moment.

Mackenzie (28:08.594)
Yeah, no, you're doing God's work because that's a bop and you know, people walks away and it was probably like wow What what was that? Have I have I been visited by a gloomy angel?

Chad (28:11.689)
That's right.

Chad (28:17.807)
Hahaha

Chad (28:21.157)
Hahaha!

Mackenzie (28:22.798)
I found I have a propensity to go down some pretty interesting YouTube rabbit holes when I hyperfixate on things. And I had a phase where I would pretty much exclusively listen to eight bit covers of anything. Glenn Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, like you name it. And somebody did an entire top to bottom eight bit cover of comic period.

Chad (28:30.9)
same.

Chad (28:36.582)
Yes

Chad (28:47.554)
Oh wow.

Mackenzie (28:48.254)
It was absolutely incredible. It worked remarkably well. I'll find it and send it to you because it's actually quite enjoyable. Yeah.

Chad (28:57.5)
Yeah, that'd be great.

So speaking of like we talked about concept albums and I think Nightfly was sort of a concept album, but not really Kamakiri adds a concept album, but not really Although Fagen sort of says that it is but you know Snowbound was written as early as 1980 right with Walter They had gotten back together pre Nightfly and started to maybe fiddle around with writing some stuff and had an idea of you know Putting out some material together and then it got shelved But I guess they dusted off that song apparently

Mackenzie (29:05.655)
Mm-hmm.

Mackenzie (29:17.64)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (29:29.518)
for Comicuread. So it's gonna be interesting when we get to morph the cat because, you know, and I feel like this is majorly retconned but it's supposed to be a trilogy, right? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about the whole thing. So we'll get there when we get to morph, but.

Mackenzie (29:40.062)
I was just about to ask. Come on now, come on now.

Chad (29:50.148)
Yeah, I mean, the whole thing with the car and this, this idea of, you know, okay, well the, the future that we envisioned in the nightfly has, has come to be right in that where we have flying cars that have like hydroponic gardens in the back and you know, we're going all over these different planets and worlds and things, and it kind of lines right up with the whole sci-fi thing that, that Fagin's so well known for. So, yeah.

Mackenzie (30:10.25)
Yeah, yeah. And I love the idea that it's also steeped in just like the most like invasive perverse humanity ever. Also, it's just like, oh my God, there's this car crash survivor of this sort of exotic far away time, but she's really hot. Like that matters.

Chad (30:31.105)
Right.

Mackenzie (30:31.466)
And, you know, like the feminist in me just completely evaporates upon hearing anything that Donald Fagen has ever done, because it's just done so tongue in cheek and over the top. And like, I just and it comes back around. I mean, sunken condos, it's about but.

I'm always just endeared to that. And I think it just roots the material in such an interesting way. So it's not just the sort of like musical Doctor Who album kind of thing. It's like, no, this is a very, very human work.

Chad (30:59.509)
Right. Yeah, for sure. Oh, no, that's a great observation. So let's move on to chronologically next would be Walter's first solo album, 11 tracks of Whack. What do you think?

Mackenzie (31:15.792)
Mm-hmm.

Mackenzie (31:20.146)
I'm gonna smash, I'm gonna smash it. Yeah, I'm gonna smash. And I think I revisited it today, knowing that we would be having this conversation today. I was a little on the fence. But I think we might've talked about this the last time, but I have just a fond appreciation of people who have clearly listened to a lot of music and introduced all of those influences into their works

Chad (31:21.821)
Wow, okay.

Mackenzie (31:49.66)
that feels very organic and non curatorial. And I feel like regardless of how sincere those integrations are on this album, it's very obvious that Walter has just consumed a lot of music in his life and is a practitioner and somebody who lives with this music on a day-to-day basis. So just the...

The commitment to the bit and the quality of the commitment to that bit, I think, is what puts this record over into the smash category for me. Yeah.

Chad (32:26.74)
Hmm, okay. I'm going to have to say pass, unfortunately. As much as I want to love this record, it's a strong like at best for me. And it's hard to put that into words. I feel like...

Chad (32:48.904)
What I've come to expect from Steely Dan, what I've come to expect from Walter and Donald, it didn't.

this didn't click for me for some reason. I feel like it's not as tight, it's not as well recorded. It's not, I mean, the musicianship is great when it comes down to it, but it just doesn't have that sheen. And I think that was sort of jogging to me when I first heard this. I was kind of like, wait a minute, this is Steely, like this is an ex Steely Dan founder. You know what I mean, right? And again, you know, heard it when it came out and was really excited and went and bought it and listened to it. And I was like, huh, didn't hate it. You know, don't hate it.

Mackenzie (32:56.191)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (33:14.364)
Yeah.

Chad (33:24.082)
it whatsoever, but just really isn't what I expected, I guess. And all these years later, I've come to appreciate it just because it's Walter. And there's some really great lyrics. And, you know, sort of like you said, I think he's seen some shit, right? Like way more than Donald has. I think Donald's got this sort of, I don't want to say unfounded, but he's got this really cynical, you know, sad bastard worldview. But Walter lived all the sad bastard shit, right, between his childhood and the heroin addiction and you know, the girlfriend died.

Mackenzie (33:39.083)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (33:50.676)
Yeah.

Chad (33:54.122)
and you know all the all the sort of things right all the bad things I feel like this records a little hard-boiled and he it makes sense for it to be but it just wasn't what I was you know hoping to hear yeah

Mackenzie (34:08.254)
Yeah, yeah, and I think it sounds it's interesting because I hadn't even thought about the

the comparison of everything that kind of came out around it. Because, you know, I have had the privilege of coming to this stuff so late that I can sort of pick and choose how I consume it in a way that is not necessarily chronological. So knowing that, like, you have something like Kamakiriad juxtaposed directly against something like this, and obviously night and day difference, and, you know, Kamakiriad sounds like a Steely Dan record in terms of production and musicality.

And I think it's aged much better as far as the sound goes in certain ways than a lot of other stuff. And 11 tracks of Wack has aged really badly. Like the moment you go into the first track, it's just like, oh yeah, this is an early 90s record by virtue of the way that the drums are recorded for sure. So it can definitely be sort of, it can take you out of the flow for sure.

Chad (34:59.1)
Yeah. Right.

Mackenzie (35:10.39)
But yeah, I think for me, standout tracks, I mean, Book of Liars is great, and you know, Callback to Alive in America, like that was great. Hat to Flat, I think was probably the first thing that I heard from this album, which is kind of odd, but I like that, like I think it's just sort of like, I don't know, there's something spooky about this record, I think probably because of what we know has imparted itself upon Walter's life to this point. But yeah, yeah.

Chad (35:15.774)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (35:40.404)
I'm endeared to it, so even if it's a pity smash, I smash.

Chad (35:46.965)
All right, good. Anything else on that or should we move along?

Mackenzie (35:51.242)
Let's keep going. Let's do it.

Chad (35:52.828)
All right, let's keep going. So Morph the Cat, the final record in the retconned nightfly trilogy. Yeah, I guess it kind of makes sense, right? So he's described it or it's been described as three distinct phases of his life, right? Nightfly was sort of like this childhood fantasy, you know, post-war.

Mackenzie (35:59.574)
The trilogy.

Chad (36:15.92)
everything's gonna be great, right? Like we have this whole new world in front of us, there's all this new technology, and what a beautiful world this will be. Spandex jackets for everyone, right? Then you get into Comicuread, which is kinda like, okay, that world came to be, and it's not so pretty.

Mackenzie (36:31.356)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (36:32.796)
And, you know, we're here, we're struggling, you know, and we're maybe going to colonize other worlds and maybe that'll be a better thing for us, right? Then you get to more of the cat. And it's supposed to be this, you know, getting old, right? It's about death, according to Fagen. So it's this like post 9-11 world that we're living in. And a lot of the songs are kind of dark and brooding. But, you know,

It's like act three, but is Fagen really done, right? Like he's not, I mean, we still have sunken condos, which came obviously, you know, many years later, and he's talking about releasing another album. So do we really want to look at this as a trilogy or is it just, you know, a continuation?

Mackenzie (37:19.914)
Yeah.

Chad (37:20.092)
with more to come. So with that in mind, but just based on the songs and just knowing the whole story, I'm a thousand percent smash on this. I love this record. Ha ha ha.

Mackenzie (37:30.214)
Yes! Oh my god. I didn't think it could get any better than you also smashing comic carry ad, but this is so great. In case it's not obvious, I'm also a passionate smash on this one. Yeah, I mean, I just...

Chad (37:38.135)
Hahahaha

Mackenzie (37:48.738)
I feel this way about Sunken Condos too, and maybe this is just me being a total fag and simp, but I love every track on this album, as I love every track on Sunken Condos. Like, the baseline on Morph the Cat alone, it's just...

Chad (37:56.296)
Yeah.

Chad (38:02.324)
Oh, just the opening. There's that opener again. This is one of the best opening musical lines and just opening songs on any album ever, right? Like that sub bass harmony and the drums and just the beat that kicks in, like it's just, it's, what's the word I want? It's dirty, it's like a dirty groove, like in the first 20 seconds, right? It doesn't sound like Fagen. It sounds like, I don't know.

Mackenzie (38:11.559)
Yes.

Mackenzie (38:21.653)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Chad (38:30.512)
like a modern and almost like an R&B record could start off, you know. So it kind of grabs you right, right out of the gate.

Mackenzie (38:33.234)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm a big fan of the title track and it's interesting. And I don't think we've talked about this, but after I moved to New York, my relationship with Steely Dan changed a lot just because, you know, they are always talking about this kind of.

push and pull between New York and LA. And when I moved here, I was like, oh, I'm getting a lot of this and understanding a lot of this in a way that I absolutely didn't before. And then I started spending more time in LA. And that added a whole other sort of dimension to my understanding of this music. But I'm endeared to all of the sort of New York specific references in this tune. And when I first moved here, when I had a little bit more free time before I started my job, I took myself on a little field trip

to go try to find all of the places that get referred to by name in Steely Dan songs. So yeah, so and I do the cheesy thing where I'd go to Tompkins Square Park and listen to Morph the Cat and just, you know, be main character about it. But yeah, like it is a completely quintessential sort of post 9-11 album. The Security Joan.

Chad (39:27.752)
Nice.

Chad (39:46.685)
Yes.

Mackenzie (39:47.182)
is so funny to me and like I just find that people of my age group just sort of there's such a cynicism of 9-11 that we have gained being this far away from it at this point that something like security jone knowing that came out within the decade of it happening um is just kind of it's kind of iconic and I think speaks to a lot of the angst that a lot of us have kind of come around to

Chad (40:01.215)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (40:13.042)
I mean, that's great. What I do, like the idea of Donald like fangirling over an idol is just so adorable. It nauseates me a bit. Mary Shut the Garden Door is just such a, it's just, you know, I think it's like an understated groove, an understated bop. But yeah, I mean, I love, I love everything about this record.

Chad (40:21.496)
It is.

Chad (40:37.82)
Yeah, me too.

Night Belongs to Mona is one of my favorite songs ever. Full stop. Yeah. I mean, like not just Fagen or Steely Dan related. It's one of my favorite songs. It it's so evocative and the lyrics really put me there. Like it puts me in Manhattan post 9-11 and it puts me with people that were like really depressed afterwards. And, you know, I mean, I live through that whole thing. I don't live in New York. I'm in New Jersey, but I was working in the city at the time. And I used to actually have to go to an office

Mackenzie (40:41.87)
It's so good. Yeah.

Chad (41:10.566)
into the World Trade Center. So part of my job was like few times a month going to different satellite sales offices around Manhattan. So I was like all over the place, but I'll never forget. Like, you know, I used to come up that escalator and walk out those doors, like by one of the towers and go down to Broad Street. So it really kind of hit home for me. But just that song.

Mackenzie (41:11.736)
Yeah?

Chad (41:31.676)
You know, and I think we've all known a Mona, you know, the line and every night we get the Mona show is like, I know, I know that woman. It's not my wife. It's not my wife. Disclaimer. But Right.

Mackenzie (41:40.394)
Yes. Maybe some of us have been that woman.

Chad (41:50.408)
But just, yeah, like you said, the whole album, every song is strong. The musicianship is phenomenal. The songwriting is probably some of his best, I think. Great Pagoda funds other standout track for me. I just love that song. I don't know why, like I don't really have a reason for it. It's just, I put that on and it just makes me feel good.

Mackenzie (42:06.463)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (42:11.391)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think that I appreciate the pacing of this album a lot. And again, I feel like this is a thing that Donald generally gets pretty spot on his records. But, you know, I feel like there are just a lot of records, not just Steely Dan exclusively, that just the pacing and sort of the tension and release of the way that the tracks are ordered can really fuck with an experience. And I just think that the flow of this album is just really, really nice to go from something like Morph the Cat,

so hard to something like H-Gang that's like a little bit more subdued but like still pretty venomous and menacing. Yeah, I don't know, man. It's just a good record. It's a great record.

Chad (42:53.748)
Yeah.

For sure. And the sequencing is a good point because I feel like a lot of Steely Dan records, and they've said this in interviews, they didn't spend a whole lot of time on sequencing, right? Like, I'm sure they picked the opening song and maybe the closing song, but in between, Fagen said they really just went with, you know, making the tempos not be too jarring from track to track, right? So they kind of sequenced a lot of things that way. So I think they didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. But I feel like Fagen's solo records, he does. I feel like there's a reason why the songs are in that certain order, whether it's, you know, narratively or musically.

Mackenzie (43:02.572)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (43:14.644)
Mm-hmm.

Mackenzie (43:21.868)
Yeah.

Chad (43:24.738)
or both, but it works. It just works. Yeah. Cool. So up next, Walter take two, Circus Money.

Mackenzie (43:27.786)
Yeah, totally agree.

Mackenzie (43:38.638)
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass. Wow. Oh man. Well, you know, at the expense of outing myself as a complete asshole, like I just, the Walter Does Reggae thing, which is so prominent on this album, is just not, I'm sorry.

Chad (43:41.945)
Wow, see I was gonna smash on this one. Yeah.

Chad (43:57.992)
That's why I love it. That's why I fucking love it.

Mackenzie (44:00.446)
Well, I'm going to leave it to you then. More for you. More for you. You can be exclusive with circus money. It's all good. Yeah, you know, it's just it's one of those things where it's like, you know what? I love it, but I don't like it.

Chad (44:03.904)
Hahaha

Chad (44:16.685)
And yes, the reggae thing, but then you have to look back on why did Steely Dan go down the reggae and some of the calypso route, not only from Fagen's childhood and obviously Becker's childhood too, but I feel like Becker had this real affinity, right? So, and you know, Haitian divorce, like that was all Walter, I feel like, you know, at least that was his influence coming to the table.

Mackenzie (44:29.314)
Totally.

Chad (44:38.524)
But and more specifically, the fact that he's doing like dub reggae, right? Like that sort of specific sub genre, if you will, which is my favorite. So it kind of it works for some reason. It just works. You know, I don't know why.

Mackenzie (44:47.381)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (44:56.256)
It's a far cry from 11 tracks. I feel like 11 tracks is more, like you said, like 90s rock driven for the most part. This gets back to a little bit of a groove, right? Which I feel like the first album didn't have.

Mackenzie (45:03.289)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (45:08.594)
Yeah, yeah, and I do have to say that I like the title track quite a lot. Paging Audrey, I think, is the standout track for me from this record. But yeah, I think I have a...

I think that I'm really sort of predisposed to make full opinions about records based on how strong the starting track is, which, you know, I don't think Door No. 2 is a particularly strong album opener, which kind of, for better or worse, you know, I'm outing myself as an improper listener, a closed-minded listener, but it makes it a little difficult for me to kind of enjoy the flow of what subsequently comes afterwards.

Chad (45:42.397)
Ha ha

Mackenzie (45:52.044)
Walter has obviously listened to a lot of music and he doesn't play music that he doesn't inform himself about or educate himself about. So the amount, the obvious amount of love and care that he's put into this is really commendable, but just not generally my schtick. Yeah.

Chad (46:12.832)
Sure, that's fair. All right, well, I think enough said about that one. Let's move on to the final solo album to date, Sunken Condos, back to Fagin. Oh, it's my turn. I'm gonna smash on this one too. You know, like I don't think there's something Fagin has done that I would pass on, to be honest. I mean, you know, again, big simp over here, I guess, but let the record show, you know?

Mackenzie (46:40.692)
Let it show, let it show. And you know, we're part and parcel on this one again, Chad. Like I just, I don't know. Like Slinky Thing is maybe one of my top three favorite Fagin solo tracks, despite the fact that it's maybe like, it's definitely not the best. But I just think there's just something about an acoustic bass. The the.

Chad (46:46.88)
Hahaha

Mackenzie (47:06.474)
his double tracking of his own vocals at the end and the sort of variations of delivery. It's just so attentive to detail and like I just I love the maturation of this gentleman loser that has pervaded all of the lyrics and albums from start to finish and we sort of have this matured gentleman loser who's still trying to still try to fuck around with 19 year old girls. Yeah.

Chad (47:26.417)
Yeah, totally.

Chad (47:31.001)
and losing them to like some young tech nerd, right? Like, you know.

Mackenzie (47:36.67)
Yeah, yeah, but it's also kind of, I mean, kind of beautiful. Like when she smiles, there's a sun in my sky. Like it's weirdly heartfelt in a way too. And like, I don't know, it's just, it's really enjoyable. And I mean, not that he's not the hero in all of our hearts and minds for so many reasons, but Michael Lenhart on this album just absolutely kills it top to bottom. I mean, I believe so, yeah.

Chad (47:43.71)
Yeah.

Chad (48:00.98)
Yeah, he plays drums on the whole thing, right? I think so too, and that just blew my mind because he's such a phenomenal horn player that how did he also become this fantastic drummer? Shit's tight, yeah, it's fantastic.

Mackenzie (48:13.99)
He's great.

Yeah, yeah, and.

Yeah, I don't know. I feel... One of the more self-conscious opinions that I have about this record, I vastly prefer his cover of Out of the Ghetto compared to the Isaac Hayes original, which feels a little disgusting for me to say for lots of reasons. But, you know, that's a guilty pleasure thing. I feel like when I'm sort of... Not that I've driven in years at this point, but any time that I'm driving on long stretches of highway in the summertime, just like blaring out of the ghetto with my windows down,

Chad (48:30.514)
Really?

Mackenzie (48:50.176)
is a visceral experience. It's a whole package environmental thing for me. Yeah, I don't know. I'm waxing poetic, so feel free to interject or I'll go on forever.

Chad (49:01.378)
Hahaha

No, beautifully said. And this is another record that you can just open the windows and play loud and sing along with and it works. It's definitely like a car-friendly road trip kind of album. All right, so we've come to the end.

Mackenzie (49:15.476)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (49:19.744)
of the official studio albums, I just want to take a quick detour into some other things. So Fagen put out a few years back, it's called Cheap Christmas, Cheap Xmas, sorry, Donald Fagen Complete, and it's basically a box set of his four solo albums and there's a bonus disc or a bonus set of mp3s as I bought them, and it's all the sort of non-album stuff and a couple of live tracks.

So I'm not real familiar with a few of these, but I wanted to talk about, I'll list them just for the viewers and listeners that might not be familiar. So we've got a song called Rhymes, a song called Big Noise New York, which I think somebody else recorded first. It was his song, but I feel like some singer recorded it, and I can't remember who it was, like maybe in the 90s. Well, if you know, leave a comment.

Mackenzie (50:12.546)
Mm.

I'm sorry.

Chad (50:16.688)
Yeah, because I'll go look it up after this. True Companion, which was, I believe, on the heavy metal movie soundtrack, which I've never seen that movie and don't really need to, confide in me, which is a demo. There's a song from Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross called Blue Lou. It's an instrumental. Don't know much about it. I'm going to just take an educated guess that it's maybe Lou Marini playing sax, who's a genius. So if that's him and I need to go Google this and find out, that'd be cool.

another unreleased track people seem to like. I listened to it a couple days ago in preparation for recording this episode and I like it, you know, it's fine. There's a live version of Green Flower Street, there's a live version of something called Hank's Pad, and there's a live version of Viva Rock and Roll. I don't know where the live came from, ostensibly some solo show over the years. So anyway, haven't done my homework on this enough, but maybe that's something I can do after

at some point, but there's one song on here that I want to single out because I absolutely love it. It's called Centuries End, and it was in the soundtrack for the 80s movie Bright Lights, Big City with Michael J. Fox.

Mackenzie (51:26.854)
Mm-hmm. Yep, yep, yep. It's crazy because I've been seeing that track get a lot of love recently, and I'm not really sure what the resurgence is all about. I'm smash, I'll smash. Yeah, pretty indiscriminately, I'll smash. I'll smash Shanghai Confidential too.

Chad (51:30.665)
See you.

Chad (51:43.496)
Oh yeah.

Chad (51:50.108)
Yeah, I would too. Oh, there's another song that wasn't included. He actually, Fagen does a cover of the song Bright Lights Big City. It's in the movie, I don't think it's on the soundtrack album. I think it's like one of those lost gems and I don't think the full version's available. I think it's like a minute or two of the song towards the end. You could probably find it online. I think it's on YouTube if anybody wants to go dig that up but also really well done. And that was right around, when was that movie? Like 85, I think, maybe 86.

Mackenzie (52:02.451)
Mmm.

Chad (52:20.562)
maybe later, maybe 88. Not sure, let me go Google that real quick. Bright Lights, Big City, 88, yeah. So again, if you haven't seen it, great movie. Michael J. Fox is in it. It's based on the novel by Jay McInerney, which I'd actually read a few years back. You know, I sort of revisited the movie and I was like, I've never read the novel. So I went and read it, great book, you know, if you're into that kind of thing.

Mackenzie (52:23.691)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (52:46.974)
Yeah, I've never checked it out, but upon your recommendation, which I prescribe as law, I will have the report on your desk by Monday morning.

Chad (52:54.202)
Hahaha please.

Chad (53:00.281)
Nice. So there's another thing to talk about and then we'll have to wrap up the whole Smasher Pass series sadly enough until we have new material from Donald I guess or new live albums. Yeah, no pressure Donald if you're listening, which I'm sure you are. I'm sure you're out there. Yeah, of course he is.

Mackenzie (53:09.983)
Yeah, this is his pressure point.

Mackenzie (53:14.401)
It's

Chad (53:19.46)
Walter has a preponderance of unreleased material that sort of came to light after his passing. So if those of you who are watching or listening out there are not familiar with Walter Becker Media.com, go visit. His estate runs it and they've been doing this great job of sort of unearthing and publishing alternate takes, demos, live versions, things that just sort of never made it out to the world. And I think it was Walter's wishes upon his death.

that this happened, like, you know, he said, hey, please go release all the stuff that you find, you know, whatever. So again, I'm not familiar with enough of it to comment, but something that I plan to spend more time doing, so. Ha ha ha.

Mackenzie (54:04.546)
That's such a Walter move. It's like, fuck the record companies, put all of this stuff out under my name so it becomes useless to them.

Chad (54:11.909)
Exactly. Love it. Great. Well, this has been a journey.

Mackenzie (54:17.643)
We did it. We undertook. This was the modern equivalent of taking the ring to Mount Dew. Like we've done something really special here, Chad.

Chad (54:29.264)
Yes, yes, I think the history books will be will be blessed by this. So the other thing we were going to do, and we sort of tease us on Instagram for those of you who know us on Instagram, but we were talking about, I don't know what we were going to call this sort of like the yacht rock cage match, but why don't you tee it up? Because it was sort of your, your idea initially.

Mackenzie (54:50.298)
Yeah, absolutely. So I was having this intrusive thought one day about like all of these sort of soft rockers that we've all come to know and love and a lot of their voices start to sound kind of similar after a while but

despite the fact that their voices start to kind of sound similar, there's definitely like a range of how hard some of these guys go in the paint. And so I was just like, you know what, on a spectrum of like who is the most butch and manly of these otherwise like very gently voiced men, you know, just where would they fall on this sort of arbitrary spectrum? And I, I decided that kind of like the hardcore end of that soft spectrum, you know, I don't think I wouldn't classify James Taylor as exclusively yacht rock,

definitely soft rocker. But by virtue of things like injecting cocaine under his tongue so he didn't have like outward marks on other parts of his body, James Taylor sees some shit and he goes in the paint and still has the voice of a goddamn angel. So James Taylor is very much on the super duper butch side of the spectrum. And then on the other side you have Mr. Popsicle Toes himself,

Mackenzie (56:06.944)
role of a human being like you know sings about like just I don't know like caressing your lover at night and in a way that is like still very platonic in a lot of ways

Chad (56:17.513)
hahahaha

Mackenzie (56:19.014)
So there's a lot of variability on the spectrum and you know despite the fact that you know there's a common listenability to all of these artists. You know some of them just are a little bit more hardcore than others and I think it's important I think the people need to ask the bigger questions about where their where their favorite crooners fall on the spectrum for the better bit of society.

Chad (56:41.524)
So should we pull a top five out of our heads and rank?

Mackenzie (56:44.422)
Hell yeah, let's do it. Absolutely. So yeah, I'm ready. I think Steven Bishop, I would pause it, probably needs to go somewhere on this list. I would say that he tends to go on the softer side of the spectrum. I think we discussed this in Instagram stories. He posted a picture of himself the other day. He looks amazing.

Chad (56:46.952)
Go ahead. Is this all you?

Chad (57:10.396)
Yeah, he totally does.

Mackenzie (57:11.474)
He, I don't know what, like he needs to drop the skincare routine because Stephen Bishop can still get it. But you know, he's not quite in the Michael Franks territory because he's worked with people like Chaka Khan and like Little Italy is a great tune, Sinking in an Ocean of Tears is a beautiful song. So I, but I put him very, very much on the sort of softer side of the Butch spectrum. Stephen Bishop is not going to be winning any fights against James Taylor.

Chad (57:16.136)
Ha ha

Chad (57:38.023)
Hahaha

Mackenzie (57:40.354)
I imagine when Steve and Bishop fights it's just kind of the sound of like uncooked fish slapping against each other sweaty palms You're welcome. Yeah, good luck trying to enjoy anything by him ever again without that Frank mental image Michael McDonald obviously has to go somewhere on this list, but he's he

Chad (57:50.068)
Thanks for that.

Mackenzie (58:04.898)
He could be really hardcore, but he chooses not to be. He has the restraint. So I think, and he's quite soulful. So I would put him smack dab in the middle of this spectrum as sort of the Aristotelian mean.

Chad (58:10.816)
Yeah.

Chad (58:21.244)
Yeah, that's fair. Although I think if cornered, he could be dangerous. Like, I feel like if you riled him up enough, he would fuck your shit up. Ha ha ha.

Mackenzie (58:24.642)
Totally.

Mackenzie (58:28.518)
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, no, like James Taylor is just indiscriminate. You catch him in a bad place and he's just not paying attention. He's in a room by himself just swinging fists around. Michael McDonald, I feel, is a bit more controlled and is deliberate about his violence.

Chad (58:36.008)
He's just throwing hands.

Mackenzie (58:54.919)
Um, who would you posit? Let's get you in the mix. Let's get you involved in this discourse.

Chad (59:01.332)
Man.

Chad (59:07.348)
just I'm trying to use the Yacht Rock web series as sort of a yardstick here. James Ingram.

Mackenzie (59:11.602)
Yeah. Oh shit, well, if we are to go based on the canon events of the Yacht Rock YouTube series, James Ingram will fuck your shit up, and Yamo killed a lot of people out there today.

Chad (59:26.836)
Hahaha!

Chad (59:30.396)
My favorite episode besides the Steely the Animal.

Mackenzie (59:32.982)
Oh my god, it's it just Kenny Loggins. I mean, obviously he's willing to cut his own foot off at the expense of beating the shit out of some Jimmy Buffett fans. So like, let's not count. Let's not count him out.

Chad (59:46.024)
Buffett's way down on the spectrum. I feel like Buffett would just probably run away and cry if there was a fight. Yeah, right.

Mackenzie (59:48.106)
Oh my God. He wouldn't show up. Yeah, he wouldn't show up to the parking lot.

Chad (59:57.788)
Well, if we're on that thread, where would you put Donald and Walter in the middle of all this? I know where I'd put them.

Mackenzie (01:00:04.954)
Um, so I think, uh, I think in this scenario, they'd be ninnies, but I think that they could manipulate other people to do their bidding for them. Um, so it makes them, it makes them, you know, the intellectuals of this cage match. Um, but if we're

Chad (01:00:20.848)
right? Like the masterminds.

Mackenzie (01:00:23.806)
Yes, although it's funny because the way that they've always come across to me in the YouTube series is that like Donald is like Walter's pet almost like Walters his handler. So I don't know. Maybe Donald would come out of the woodwork and surprise us like

Chad (01:00:39.2)
Maybe, although I feel like Walter would be the more sure bet in terms of being actually able to fight if required.

Mackenzie (01:00:42.974)
Yes. Yes, yeah, I completely agree. For some reason, I just imagined Donald coming with like head congestion and being like really snotty and slobbery. Yeah, that's headcanon, TM, TM. Hmm.

Chad (01:00:54.26)
Hahaha!

Chad (01:01:03.816)
Yeah, who else is out there?

Mackenzie (01:01:07.838)
Vincent Price? The actor? I don't know. He's a well, what would no what am I thinking of? Oh, the episode whenever he has the seance to resurrect Coco's ghost. Skunk Baxter's a man of the spirit so he would have a literal army of undead on his side.

Chad (01:01:12.636)
Really?

Chad (01:01:22.452)
Oh God, yes, yes.

Chad (01:01:32.671)
Ha ha

Mackenzie (01:01:34.154)
Yeah.

Well, and Skunk also has, in addition to having his army of the undead, also has the military industrial complex on his side, so... Yes.

Chad (01:01:46.261)
That's right. You mess with skunk and the next day you're just driving down the highway and you see this little red dot in your mirror. The next thing you know, boom, it's over.

Mackenzie (01:01:55.996)
Yeah, Skunk does not play. He's the Moriarty of the situation for sure.

Chad (01:02:02.591)
Well, let's do original Steely Dan band members since we went that way. That leaves us with Denny Diaz.

Mackenzie (01:02:05.458)
Let's do it.

Mackenzie (01:02:09.574)
You know, Denny, I think is a is kind of a sleeper like McDonald. Like Denny to me registers as a total teddy bear, especially when he's in his overall phase. But but I also feel like when pressed, Denny would like you'd want Denny in your corner. Like, I think I think he'd be I think he'd be a good tap in. Maybe not like an initial player in the scheme. He'd a good tap in. Yeah.

Chad (01:02:27.156)
Yeah.

Chad (01:02:31.056)
Yeah, he'd be a tap in for sure. I feel like he would be a great bouncer because he'd be like so just chill and cool and be friends with everybody. But like when the shit hit the fan, he would just start picking people up and just tossing them out the door, you know?

Mackenzie (01:02:42.706)
Yeah, yeah, Denny's, don't run under right Denny Diaz. I think he'd be a good choice.

Chad (01:02:49.556)
funny story with the overalls. You know, I had the pleasure of sort of co-interviewing Denny with Simsey Nichols last year. And we were talking about the whole overall thing. So Simsey and her sister Ashley wore overalls on the YouTube stream as sort of an homage and oh, it was adorable. And he was like laughing about it and stuff. And they kept making overall references. And he was like, guys, he's like, I haven't worn overalls since like the seventies. But then come to find out there's a picture of him

Mackenzie (01:03:05.422)
Good job.

Mackenzie (01:03:15.299)
Hahahaha

Chad (01:03:19.67)
with I forget who he was with anyway irrelevant but he was at like NAMM or one of these like recording industry shows and it was like the mid 90s or late 90s and he had overalls on in the picture we were like thought you said you didn't wear you know it was it's funny it's just so funny

Mackenzie (01:03:34.882)
It's so funny because I'm sure that there are plenty of pieces of media of Denny Dias without overalls. I can't name a single one of them outside of maybe the Classic Albums documentary. Every picture that I've ever seen of him includes a pair of overalls.

Chad (01:03:46.856)
Yeah.

And him on stage for the midnight special shows he's wearing like a caftan kind of thing, right. So that was the only other time that I've sort of seen him without the trademark overalls on so Yeah. David Palmer who Phil says beer goggles Robert plan.

Mackenzie (01:03:56.937)
Mm-hmm.

Mackenzie (01:04:01.633)
Style icon, honestly.

Chad (01:04:15.709)
It still cracks me up every time I say it or hear it. But yeah, I don't know anything about the guy. I know so little about him, you know, compared to all the other band members. So like, what do you think?

Mackenzie (01:04:17.95)
It's so good. It's so good. Oh my god.

Mackenzie (01:04:28.586)
I mean, he's got the voice of an angel. Like, it's hard for me to imagine him, like, it's just hard for me to imagine him touching somebody, let alone doing it with, like, malicious intent. You know, we're gonna find out after the fact that he, like, fucking murdered somebody in the streets of Los Angeles or something. But, yeah, just like exactly like a Jim Corden story.

Chad (01:04:46.208)
Yeah, right. Like a Jim Gordon story.

Mackenzie (01:04:53.106)
Yeah, you know, I'm just, I think he's a delicate flower. Just, yeah, so I would not feel threatened by David Palmer if I met him in an alleyway.

Chad (01:04:58.237)
Yeah, agreed.

Chad (01:05:05.088)
No, I am by no means a fighter, but I could totally kick David Palmer's ass any day of the week. Any day of the week. Yeah, any day. All right, so that leaves us with one original member, and that's Jim Hodder. I know what I think about Jim because I just listened to the interview with him that was on Expanding Dan. I don't know if you had a chance to check that out. Yeah.

Mackenzie (01:05:11.236)
Any day.

Mackenzie (01:05:26.19)
No, no, but I'll have to. What's your... where do you come down on this discourse?

Chad (01:05:32.112)
I feel like Jim would kick some ass too. I feel like he's no joke. Yeah.

Mackenzie (01:05:35.242)
Yeah. Solid pick.

Chad (01:05:40.88)
So the Steely Dan Fighting Unit, you've got a scrapper, you've got a mastermind, you've got a clean-up guy, you've got a delicate flower, as you so eloquently put it, and you've got Fagen, who's just like a wild card. You know, could be a wimp, could be a psycho, we don't know, right? We've never seen him in that mode, so.

Mackenzie (01:05:44.621)
Hehe

Mackenzie (01:06:01.662)
Yeah. He's the animal companion in the anime adaptation.

Chad (01:06:09.309)
Exactly. Well, there you have it.

Mackenzie (01:06:09.97)
Yeah, I'm into it. I think we did some really good research here today.

Chad (01:06:18.132)
I think there's a cartoon to be made out of this.

Mackenzie (01:06:21.4)
Well, that's a conversation for the next episode. Who's going to voice them in the cartoon adaptation?

Chad (01:06:27.636)
Great, I was just gonna say, I think we have way more to cover and we're gonna have to do an episode three and go a little further off the track here.

Mackenzie (01:06:34.634)
Oh, I'm so sorry to all of your lovely listeners who are being subjected to this insanity multiple times.

Chad (01:06:42.081)
This is what it's about. This is why I started the podcast. This is not a Steely Dan podcast. I've taken to saying that in every damn episode because every episode sort of leans into Steely Dan. But it's all good. It's what I do. Get it?

Mackenzie (01:06:54.132)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (01:06:57.382)
Yeah, that's it. Hey. Nice.

Chad (01:07:02.272)
I've been dropping all these like completely unintentional Steely Dan song title and lyric references in my episodes and it's been great because I'll catch them as they're coming out of my mouth and I'm like damn it did it again. Yeah, that's okay.

Mackenzie (01:07:13.07)
son of a bitch. I find that that's just a really good way to vet friends as an adult, is to make obscure niche references to things like the taxicab confessions or like the commentary from the MTV storytellers thing. And if people respond appropriately and they give you kind of like that knowing look, it's like, oh, you're my people. But if they're just like, hey, yeah, it's like, oh, you're not worth the waste of space and time. It's fine.

Chad (01:07:26.4)
Thanks for watching.

Chad (01:07:37.548)
Absolutely. Yeah, that's a good measuring stick for sure. All right, anything else, Mackenzie?

Mackenzie (01:07:39.87)
Yeah.

Mackenzie (01:07:45.074)
I don't think so, Chad. I appreciate you for having me on. Yeah, definitely nobody else on the internet is talking about smashing or passing, can't buy a thrill in comic period, so I think we're really elevating the conversation, and I appreciate you giving us a platform to continue this.

Chad (01:07:50.873)
I appreciate you for being here.

Chad (01:08:05.272)
And more importantly, nobody is discussing the potential fighting prowess of Soft Rock and Steely Dan band members. So, you know, I think we've really blazed new trails there.

Mackenzie (01:08:16.478)
I think so too. I think so too.

Chad (01:08:19.284)
Great. All right. Well, enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks again for being here and we'll have to plot and plan and do a part three. All right. Talk to you soon. Take care.

Mackenzie (01:08:24.75)
Absolutely man, thank you so much. Sounds good.