Episode 12 transcript

Note: this transcript is AI-generated, and as such, it may contain spelling or grammatical errors.

Chad (00:01.421)
Hello and welcome back to the Aural Mess Podcast. My guest tonight is Zamauri Jones. Hey, Zamauri.

Zamauri (00:07.952)
Hey, how's it going?

Chad (00:09.451)
Doing well, thanks. Thanks for coming on. Why don't you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Zamauri (00:16.144)
So I'm Zamauri. I guess I'm somewhat known for the Dealing Stan Instagram page. You know, posting Steely Dan oriented content and the Dan Vault YouTube channel. You know, just cool rare clips and audio recordings and whatnot. So yeah.

Chad (00:41.806)
Oh, that's great. I was really surprised to see sort of the young face behind the account. I first realized, you know, how young you were, if you don't mind me saying, when you were a guest on Steely Phil's podcast. And, you know, up until then, I thought, I thought Dealing Stan was like an old guy like me. So it's, it's really cool and really refreshing to see how, you know, not only the generation behind me, but, but, you know, the one behind them

Zamauri (00:48.848)
Hahaha.

Zamauri (00:56.216)
Mm-hmm.

Zamauri (01:00.4)
Hahaha!

Chad (01:09.646)
are really getting into Steely Dan and Yacht Rock and Zappa, you know, like your hat and all these other sort of classic bands. So tell me a bit about, you know, how you first came across Steely Dan and some of the other music that you're into.

Zamauri (01:27.248)
It's really just you know, just a matter of me being interested in it, you know, just it's just my taste for the most part. But I will say my goddad my godfather he really you know has spurred my interest in some of this stuff like, you know, whenever I you know, spend time with him he's always playing, you know tons of old you know classic things, you know from different genres to you know rock, soul, R&B, etc. But yeah, I'm just really interested in it. I guess it's somewhat natural, just my natural music taste.

Chad (02:03.918)
And are you a musician at all? Do you play instruments and you know, are you inclined that way?

Zamauri (02:11.168)
Yeah, I play piano and I technically play saxophone and accordion but I'm not nearly as good on those as I am on, you know, piano. So...

Chad (02:27.406)
What are some of your favorite things to play on the different instruments? Good or not?

Zamauri (02:34.432)
Whatever for the most part like on an accordion for example, I was learning the Godfather theme. That was like a year ago or so and I've revisited it here and there but I'm just kind of impulsive when it comes to getting instruments or just doing different things. I just hop from side to side.

Chad (03:02.093)
Same, same. I started out in third grade taking guitar lessons. As you can see behind me, I'm still into it that many years later, but I was always trying to find something else as like a musical outlet. So fifth grade, we were able to take more advanced instruments when I was in school. So I picked up the saxophone and played that for a while all the way through my teenage years, I guess. And I stuck with the guitar ever since, but I'm always, you know, and then I learned bass a little bit and a little bit of keyboards. But, you know, I've been the same way. Like I'm always just trying to find something new to play or to sort of figure out.

Zamauri (03:42.416)
Yeah, I played sax. I played alto sax in sixth grade and then I switched to tenor in seventh and I played that until my senior year of high school. But I never really practiced so I was pretty shoddy at it. But piano, I've been, that's for sure the instrument I'm most proficient at and the one I just enjoy the most too.

Chad (04:11.47)
Piano is so foundational, I think, for other instruments. If you can play the piano, it just helps you think musically more so than, you know, it's one thing I wish I had focused on. I took piano lessons for a summer when I was a kid and I hated it. So, you know, I quit and that's how I ended up doing saxophone after the guitar thing kind of, you know, was still going on. But if you can...

Zamauri (04:13.776)
Oh yeah, yeah.

Chad (04:37.592)
read music, if you can get both of your hands working at the same time, I find that lends itself to so many other things.

Zamauri (04:45.2)
Yeah, I honestly wish I took piano lessons because I've just you know watched YouTube. That's all I've done for the last you know several years I guess somewhat self-taught you know. But I do wish I had like an actual teacher when I was younger because I would be a lot more advanced than I am now you know. But I think I think I'm sufficient though. You know I'm you know kind of

Chad (04:46.669)
But yeah.

Chad (05:06.798)
Well, it's never too late.

Zamauri (05:13.332)
stable enough stage, you know, I can kind of get around certain tunes and whatnot, but uh, yeah.

Chad (05:20.046)
Yeah, that's what it's all about. I mean, I think just that sufficiency and YouTube is, you know, I wish I had YouTube when I was a kid. You know, it was like, you know, sheet music and, and trying to figure out things by ear and, you know, listening to a song and try and trying to play it back. And it was, it was hard, but my daughter, who's 18, taught herself so many songs just by watching YouTube, not just tutorials, but you know, playing the actual song and sort of picking out some notes and then
she'd get to a section where she couldn't figure it out or there were chords that she wanted to figure out, you know, how the chords worked. And she would just pull up a YouTube tutorial and bang away at it for a few hours. And then, you know, I'd come up to check on her and she'd play me a song and I was just like, wow. So YouTube's a great tool. I mean, you find so much stuff. And speaking of YouTube, how did you get this inkling to start the Dan Vault channel and you know, I'm not asking you to divulge your sources, but how the hell are you finding all this stuff? I mean, you've uncovered some rare gems.

Zamauri (06:18.16)
Hehehe

Zamauri (06:23.568)
Well, okay, so to answer your first question it first started because my friend Oscar, you know, we talk online. We kind of connected over the Dan and whatnot. He actually came up with the idea. He was like, hey, we should start a YouTube channel because for the first year of me running my Instagram page, I would post all the cool things I find just in full length on Instagram. That's not as practical as posting it on YouTube. So he came up with the idea, and we just started the YouTube channel. And yeah, it's weird, because at first I was kind of like, I don't really think we should start a channel. But since starting it, I think it's really, you know, I guess somewhat beneficial and you know more accessible than having to like scroll through an Instagram feed to find different things. But yeah, in terms of sources, it really just varies. You know, I found a lot of stuff on Facebook, just searching deep through the web, you know, an embarrassing amount of hours, you know, just looking into Steely Dan content. And then there's been like a handful of things that people have like emailed me or you know sent me and stuff. But really almost like I would say like 98 % of the stuff I post has been you know just stuff I've happened to found on my own. Yeah it's it's weird because like lots of people have asked me like where I find stuff but like it's really just a matter of just searching or not even necessarily knowing where to search but just searching for an extensive amount of time you know. Um, but yeah.

Chad (08:11.694)
Yeah, I think when you're, when you get on the trail of something and you're, you're deep into searching stuff on Google, the things that surface are just amazing that you wouldn't think in like the darkest corners of the Internet. You know what I mean? Like, um, I, I've also tried to find some things, you know, like before the, the, the sort of unofficial Second Arrangement release last summer, um, there was rumor that somebody, you know, had a copy of

Zamauri (08:24.44)
Mm -hmm.

Chad (08:41.294)
some version of it hiding somewhere on a website, but it wasn't really public anymore, but the website was still up. So I was trying all these different things trying to like back into finding the pages and couldn't get there obviously, but it's crazy. And I feel like there's so much material that's still sitting in somebody's bedroom, right? Like in a shoe box someplace, like tapes and pictures and Cimcie Nichols has been just like, I know she's

Zamauri (09:01.84)
Oh yeah, yeah.

Chad (09:09.485)
busy trying to launch a whole new business right now, but I'm hoping she gets back to, you know, what she was working on recently, which was scanning all of her father's film and photos from the Steely Dan days, because apparently there's just like this treasure trove of pictures of not only, you know, Donald and Walter, but the rest of the band and everybody else. So I'm just hoping that as time goes on and you know, maybe before I die, all this stuff will come to light, you know, or.

Zamauri (09:37.72)
No, yeah, I think we'll for certain we'll see a lot of you know rarities in your lifetime, so I don't think you have to worry about you know dying. Yeah, but yeah, Cimcie she's been amazing, you know, like last year 2023 was like crazy, we saw a lot of things. I mean the Schlitz song, you know several dozen pictures that are

Chad (09:51.438)
Ha ha.

Chad (09:58.99)
Yes.

Zamauri (10:06.288)
You know, were pretty cool. I mean, the several videos she uploaded to YouTube, you know, showing the studio stuff. I mean, that one with Roger and Donald walking around through the woods and stuff. I mean, come on. I mean, yeah, she's great though. She's contributed a lot to the community overall.

Chad (10:18.126)
Yes, that was amazing.

Chad (10:27.814)
Yeah, I'm hoping to get her to come on the podcast as soon as she's got some free cycles, but I was lucky enough to help her out with some of the interviews that she was doing. So I sat in on Gary Katz and Denny Dias and I had to pinch myself. I mean, it was like, you know, it was just unreal. And the whole thing started because when she was doing the live stream of playing The Second Arrangement for the first time on

Zamauri (10:34.48)
Yeah.

Chad (10:56.046)
YouTube there was somebody kept like comment bombing her and and sort of trying to take over the feed yeah so she was asking in real time on the on the the stream like hey does anybody know how to do YouTube moderation you know I want to see if we can get somebody to kick this guy off, and I wasn't really a YouTube moderator but I raised my hand and I was like well I'm a tech guy I kind of know how to do stuff like that like you know give me mod rights and I'll see if I can figure out how to block them.

Zamauri (11:01.712)
Yeah, I remember that too.

Chad (11:24.43)
Um, so I did, and it was me and another person. Um, it was one of the Jive Miguels. I don't think it was Instagram Jive Miguel. I think it was Discord Jive Miguel. So many Jive Miguels. Um, and between the two of us, I think we were keeping this person relatively out of the stream. So, you know, afterwards I was chatting with Cimcie and she was like, hey, you know, um, if you're into it, I would love to, you know, maybe ask you to help in future streams and, you know, help figure out some of this tech stuff and you know, I'm going to try a new platform and do some testing. And I was like, I'll do anything you want. Right. Because it was just so cool to be able to be that close to some of the Steely Dan world. So it was just great. It was it was absolutely an amazing summer all the way around.

Zamauri (12:08.336)
Yeah, and I remember thinking that when I would see you on the videos, because I think I watched the Gary Katz one, the Skunk one, and some of the Denny Dias one, but I was like, damn, like I wish I was Chad right now. This is, I mean, come on.

Chad (12:22.317)
I haven't heard those words too many times, but yeah.

Zamauri (12:27.12)
I mean, but how did that feel though? That must have been just like surreal.

Chad (12:30.83)
I was nervous as hell, I'm not gonna lie. You would think I was sitting in the room with like, you know, I don't know, the Queen of England. I mean, not that I would wanna meet the Queen of England, but you know what I mean? Like to me, these people were royalty, right? So it was like, I was super nervous, but Gary Katz could not have been a sweeter person. He is so nice, totally unassuming. And same with Denny. Denny is just the most laid back,

Zamauri (12:33.04)
Hehehehe

Chad (12:56.974)
you know, chill person you would ever want to talk to. And, you know, I didn't get a chance to really talk to them one-on-one, even though it was kind of behind the scenes in the stream, but just being on camera and, you know, asking questions and helping sort of moderate the conversation, it went by so fast because I was like, you know, didn't really believe it was happening, you know, it was kind of cool.

Zamauri (13:17.968)
Yeah, that's kind of a similar thing when I saw the Dan for the first time. It was a great experience, but it was weird how surreal it felt just seeing Donald come out on stage. Because I was sitting in the balcony too, so I wasn't extremely up close, but still just seeing his presence in person. Because I'm so used to seeing him on my phone or on YouTube clips and stuff. But yeah, before I knew it, the concert was over and I was like, wow, I just saw Steely Dan. Like, it was wild.

Chad (13:53.484)
When was that, recently?

Zamauri (13:55.61)
It was I think July 22 Yeah, 2022 when I saw them. The closest that they were playing to me for this Eagles tour was North Carolina, but you know, I'm in college and stuff. So Unfortunately, you know, I couldn't wasn't able to see them.

Chad (14:17.164)
Yeah, I, and I've mentioned this a few times on previous episodes. I'm kicking myself. I probably should have just bit the bullet and spent the money and gone, but I was really like not ready to spend that much money to get halfway decent seats to go and see a 45 minute greatest hits sort of set. And you know, I like the Eagles. I'm not a huge Eagles fan. I don't know that I'd want to sit through a whole show. You know what I mean? So I was kind of like, eh, maybe I'll skip this one, but

Zamauri (14:35.536)
Yeah.

Chad (14:46.091)
I just really hope I didn't screw up and hopefully Donald will come back around with just Steely Dan either over the summer or maybe next year. I hope he's got another couple of tours in him. I think he might.

Zamauri (14:58.008)
Yeah, I mean, you know, at this age in his life, any chance to see him is a, you know, you really got to take it. So I don't know. I'll probably as impulsive as I am, I probably would have just spent the few hundred dollars for some horrible seat, just to hear greatest hits.

Chad (15:05.673)
Yeah.

Chad (15:15.084)
Yeah. And again, I'm, I'm sorry I didn't, but you know, what am I going to do? So I guess, um, the other question that I had that, that I was thinking about for you was, um, because we, we had this kind of funny exchange on Instagram about, uh, Two Against Nature. So I'm not a big favorites ranking, you know, kind of person really, especially with Steely Dan, because for me it's, it's, it changes every day, you know, like I'll just

Zamauri (15:17.552)
Hahaha.

Chad (15:44.14)
focus on an album or a song for a while and then, you know, I'll sort of get sick of it and switch to something else and then come back. But what are some of your favorites? Like, you know, what were some of the early songs that your godfather played for you and, you know, what were some of the things that kind of drew you to the band and what have you developed into from there? Like, you know, which songs are currently your favorites to listen to?

Zamauri (16:11.152)
Some of the earliest ones, like literally the first handful of songs I heard from them were Black Cow, Kid Charlemagne, Don't Take Me Alive, oddly enough, Your Gold Teeth II. That was a song that my goddad really liked. And it's funny, in retrospect, that's pretty interesting because that's a really deep cut.

Chad (16:24.459)
Wow.

Chad (16:36.49)
Yeah.

Zamauri (16:38.32)
But yeah, Dirty Work too, I used to love that, Fire in the Hole. But yeah, those were definitely some of the first few that I heard. And when I first heard them, my goddad would, well, he introduced me to them. After that, I took kind of a break from it. I listened to a little bit of it. But I think a year later, I came back and I decided, hmm, let me delve into them. Let me check out a few other songs. And you know, I started listening to a lot of stuff on Can't Buy a Thrill and I really liked that album. But then I ended up going to my grandparents' house and I found this CD that they had and they let me have it. It was this like, I don't know what album it was, but it was just a random CD that had Steely Dan written on it and marker. And I played it and Bodhisattva, that's the first song that came on and it was a...it was crazy, like I don't think I had ever felt like a euphoric, you know, experience induced from music like that before. So it was really, it was really, it was, it was just great. But yeah, Bodhisattva came on and it went through some other tunes and then the next day I decided to just go out sit on the porch put in put on my headphones and I started from Can't Buy a Thrill all the way to the last album and man it was oh my God it was crazy and from that listening experience for sure, Bodhisattva, Green Earrings and The Royal Scam at least as far as I can remember, those were the ones that really stood out and just made me feel all the chills and stuff. And yeah, and honestly, when I listened to Two Against Nature and Everything Must Go, I wasn't kind of feeling them that much on the first listen, as I imagine most people felt. But a few years later, I ended up checking it out again because I posted a meme on my Instagram page where it was like this picture of a guy walking and then like he basically stepped in some shit and when he looked at the bottom of his shoe it was Two Against Nature on the bottom of his shoe. But yeah and then after I did that of course a lot of people commented saying hey how dare you do that etc etc Chris Potter was amazing on there and I was like who? You know? And you know, after being berated horribly by people, I decided to, you know, listen to Two Against Nature a few times and Everything Must Go. You know, I started coming around to it, you know, warming up to it. And eventually I loved it, you know, like at this moment, those are some of the songs on Two Against Nature are some of my favorite Dan songs ever. Yeah, but it really is interesting how like...

Chad (19:15.037)
All right.

Zamauri (19:42.416)
your feeling on a certain piece of music can change. Like I had never experienced that before either. You know, normally I just, you know, listen to music if I don't like it and it is what it is, but like genuinely Two Against Nature, I did not like it at all to begin with. And now I, you know, think it's some of the greatest music I've ever heard. Um, yeah, but I guess that's, uh, my experience with the Dan really evocative music.

Chad (20:12.043)
Yeah, and it's like you said, it changes for me all the time because I feel like I'm always hearing new things in the music when I go back and listen. You know, a lot of my listening is done in the car. You know, I commute from New Jersey into Manhattan a few times a week and I've got a good hour, hour and a half, depending on traffic each way. So, um, and I don't just listen to Steely Dan, obviously, but you know, if, if I'm listening and really in the mood to sing along or, you know, do whatever while I'm sitting in traffic, it's usually one of the bands that I turn to. And then when I come home and I'm, you know, working from home on certain days and I've got headphones on and I'm listening to them that way, I'll just pick up a little part in the background that I never noticed before or I'll pick up some recording nuance like you know something has reverb and it's panned hard right, you know what I mean? Like well, they didn't use a lot of reverb, but you know bad example but you know what I mean? Like I'll just hear something and it just grabs me and I'm like, oh wow never noticed that before and I can't tell you how many times I've heard their whole catalog from front to back and it just never ceases to amaze me how it's it sort of always surprises me.

Zamauri (21:03.504)
Yeah.

Chad (21:21.163)
I wasn't a big fan of, as you know, of Two Against Nature. You know, when it came out, I wasn't a super Dan fan at that point, but I was sort of turned off by it because I was like, oh, this doesn't sound like Steely Dan, you know, it's like some new weird type of thing. Everything Must Go, definitely, I liked it better when it came out, but those two albums I've really just sort of, you know, shied away from, I think for a long time because I'm just so into the first ones, you know, the, the, the first seven. So, um, and I was just saying this to somebody yesterday, like I've come around to Two Against Nature from a songwriting and a musical craft perspective. I'm not a big fan of the recording and the production. Um, but hearing those songs out of that context, when they play them live to me has just given them a certain something that wasn't there for me before, really starting to warm up to some of the songs. You know, when you hear them live and they breathe a little bit better, they stretch out a little bit better, they're not so cold and clinical and, you know, dare I say overproduced, right?

Zamauri (22:35.702)
Yeah, that's a really valid feeling. I definitely see where you're coming from. I really don't know what to say. I don't know why I didn't really like it to begin with, but love it now. But I do remember when I would first, you know, in my first few listens of Two Against Nature, I kind of felt like it was Steely Dan trying to sound like Steely Dan. That's like, that was like my general opinion on it. And I thought it was just like, come on. But, you know, when you actually sit down and follow, like their evolution, you know, from like...of course they ended with Gaucho and then Donald did a bunch of stuff throughout the 80s and 90s and he slowly transitions into that kind of rhythm based and just groove, straight groove based music, you know, just like Two Against Nature and Everything Must Go, you know, where they just lay down a groove and then they just ride it basically the whole song. So, you know, not only in that aspect do I understand it, because, you know, if you pay attention, it's a really pretty obvious evolution, but also I just love it. I don't know. Yeah. So you're saying that you still just haven't gotten into that like space where you can fully appreciate it. It's just more of a technical appreciation for it still. Is that what you're saying?

Chad (24:05.259)
So yeah, I mean at least that they're like I said the the album versions of a lot of the songs You know, it's they're growing on me because I'm making myself listen to them more like actually listen to the albums not just the live cuts of some of the songs but what's kind of funny is I really love all four of Fagen's solo albums and you make a great point that he just is very groove based, same kind of production, you know, lower register type parts on the bass, right. And it hits a whole different way from Steely Dan. And it is very similar to the last two albums. So I guess maybe I'm a little hypocritical. But, you know, I dig the groove stuff. Yeah. And I don't know why. Maybe it's a mental block. Maybe it's because when it came out, I was like I said, I wasn't a giant

Zamauri (24:50.416)
Yeah, that is kind of funny.

Chad (24:58.955)
Steely Dan fan, but I did love a lot of their music and I was just turned off by it so much that I think I just sort of have this, you know, thing against it for some reason that I can't shake, but I'm trying. I'm trying to turn it around. Oh yeah.

Zamauri (25:11.456)
And I hope you do because I mean the more music you enjoy the better right, you know, no one wants to hate a song or dislike any particular you know piece of music. Hopefully you come around to it because it's you know, like for example West of Hollywood I think that's one of their best songs like at least top five for me. Um, I, whoo, that's the track right there.

Chad (25:43.659)
Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, like I said, I'm trying to get there. I think I will get there. So with that whole connection to Fagen's solo stuff in mind, what are your feelings on Walter's two albums?

Zamauri (26:00.196)
Um, you know, I like them. I really like Circus Money. You know, I think that's more accessible than 11 Tracks, of course. I think that's a pretty agreeable notion. But I like 11 Tracks as well. Like there's a few songs up there like Hard Up Case, Surf And/Or Die, Junkie Girl, Down it the Bottom, of course. That's the...

Chad (26:07.819)
Yeah.

Zamauri (26:30.288)
the summer bop from the album and then Book of Liars yeah those are those are definitely the ones I really like the most from that album but with that being said overall I personally find Fagen's stuff to be, not only do I enjoy it more, but I find it to be more just...I guess not necessarily fully thought out, but just more...I don't know, I just enjoy it more. Do you see where I'm coming from though? Even though I'm not...

Chad (27:05.099)
Yeah. Yeah, I see where you're, I totally see where you're coming from. It feels like if, if you, you take those two who were like really, you know, joined at the brain, right, and you split them in half, their individual efforts to me are very representative of maybe what their contributions were to the band, right? Where I feel like Donald was the architect in terms of the music and the charts and the parts. And Walter had a part in that too, not trying to reduce his contribution to the band whatsoever. But I feel like he was more of an idea guy. And I think Donald was the one that took some of those ideas and really developed them and sort of ran them into the ground, right? Until they got to the point where it was perfection as far as they wanted to be able to record something the way that they heard it in their heads. So if you take that sort of dichotomy, if you will, between the two of them, Walter's first record sounds really rough and it's not, right? I mean, there's a lot of work that was put into it, I'm sure. The production's massive, great musicianship. It's not like, you know, he just got in a room and threw tracks on tape and said, okay, it's an album, but it feels more spontaneous where everything Fagen did, you know, was very, very calculated and very thought out, like you said.

Zamauri (28:26.032)
Yeah, just really well orchestrated, you know, Donald's stuff. I mean, you know, for example, what comes to mind at the moment is The Great Pagoda of Funn. I mean, that's like a, you know, like just playing that in my head. That's such a grand, beautiful composition, you know, especially in comparison to 11 Tracks of Whack as an album, you know, most of the stuff up there. But yeah, and you know, I don't think it's wrong to...you know, even highlight the fact that Donald was, you know, the main guy putting together the harmonic framework of a lot of the Dan tunes. Cause, you know, they've talked about that in a few interviews, you know, where Walter has been like, yeah, Donald's, you know, you know, he kind of highlights what Donald contributes. And then Donald was like, yeah, you know, I kind of brought in a lot of this and then, you know, we will work on it together. But yeah, I think that just, you know, says it exactly. That's why Donald's stuff is more enjoyable or, you know, just overall more, seemingly more like complex and whatnot. Cause he, you know, he's able to really put it all together and whatnot. Whereas Walter, you know, he was, he was definitely a huge part when it comes to the lyrics and whatnot and adding a lot of stuff to the music. Yeah, I hope that doesn't seem like I'm trying to diminish Walter's part for anyone listening as well too.

Chad (29:59.157)
No, no. Yeah, not at all. And that wasn't my intention either. And, you know, it's, I just think it is, it is what it is. I think it's, it's how they work together. Um, and you know, some of the interviews that I've read or listened to over the years where they, where they said just that, and they would even say like, you know, it would come down to sometimes Donald would have a whole song and Walter would change one word, right? Be like, you know what? I don't like this word, change it to this in the chorus and we're done. Right. So, and that's the beauty of it because who knows what the song would have sounded like without.

Zamauri (30:06.852)
Yeah.

Chad (30:29.067)
I mean, it's one little contribution, one little piece, one little piece of input can make such a difference that, you know, I don't think it diminishes Walter's role if that's all he did in certain cases, you know.

Zamauri (30:40.272)
Yeah, yeah, you know, it would be fun to for it to be true that they contributed an exactly equal amount to everything, but you know, just realistically, that's not going to be possible, you know. So, yeah, it just is what it is. But still, you know, Walter was brilliant on his own as well. So, you know, that doesn't change anything from that fact.

Chad (31:02.355)
Oh yeah, absolutely. So as a musician, what are some of your favorite musical moments in Steely Dan songs, whether it's a chord change or a drum fill or just anything?

Zamauri (31:22.608)
Um, I mean, of course Aja, you know, that's the honestly kind of a meme now sort of meme or whatever But yeah, of course that drum...But yeah, of course that drum/sax break and then the drum, you know stuff at the end I mean, that's fabulous just phenomenal, you know Ccertainly the...

Chad (31:31.211)
I've made a few of those.

Chad (31:41.845)
Yeah. And it was one take, right? Wasn't it? Wasn't the drum solo, he did it in one take? Yeah.

Zamauri (31:47.556)
Yeah the drums from what I've heard yeah but yeah that of course then I mean the four minute long improvised solo from Chris Potter I mean Jesus Christ I mean you know you listen to stuff like that it's like

Chad (32:02.441)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Zamauri (32:07.6)
of course, you know, people like Coltrane and whatnot, you know, pioneered a lot of things, paved the way for a lot of guys out now. But, you know, that only makes it easier for people to become some of the greatest in their field, given that things have already been done before. So they're able to build on top of that. And with that being said, I just want to say, like Chris Potter, he's I think he's probably like the greatest saxophonist, not only living but probably one of the best in the last like 100 years maybe or I don't know like several decades in terms of jazz maybe in my opinion.

Chad (32:44.711)
Yeah, like I can see that, right

Zamauri (32:49.624)
I don't know, he's just great. But yeah, those two saxophone things are great of course. I mean, Doctor Wu, that was like an early version of Aja, so to speak, you know, with that whole drum, you know, Porcaro and Phil Woods going at it. I mean, you know, beautiful.

Chad (33:10.859)
One of my favorite all-time Steely Dan songs and it's funny because I feel like so much of Katy Lied just doesn't make people's lists, you know?

Zamauri (33:19.472)
Yeah, I mean, Katy lied. It's I think it's better than Pretzel Logic, but it's it does have a sort of Pretzel Logic kind of feel in terms of just how quirky it is, in my opinion. But yeah, Doctor Wu, that's that's a very valid opinion. You know, that's a phenomenal song. I mean, the lyrics and then on top of that, the music, it just that's a really beautiful example of just how, just how well the lyrics and music can complement each other, you know? I mean, you got the, I guess, sort of heroin addict story going on, you know, Katy Lied and whatnot. And you just got the brilliant harmony and oh my God. But yeah.

Chad (34:07.563)
Yeah, that whole album was, was I think my favorite Steely Dan album for a long time. And, and, you know, you said it well that songs maybe don't really fit as an album, but did any besides Aja and maybe Gaucho, did any Dan album have a, a, a sort of cohesive theme throughout the whole album? Probably not. Right.

Zamauri (34:29.456)
Yeah, um, yeah, Aja did. I would say Gaucho for sure. I kind of say, uh, Two Against Nature and Everything Must Go, they have, they seem to really have, you know, delve into that loser, quote on thing, that Steely Dan is known for. You know, you got What a Shame About Me, um, Gaslighting Abbie. I don't know, it's just kind of, just goofy little stories about these weird, unfortunate characters. Um.

Chad (35:03.239)
Yeah.

Zamauri (35:05.656)
But yeah, I know I just highlighted saxophone parts as my favorite moments, but I mean, those are some of the best things they've done. Not to mention, every single Steely Dan guitar solo is just off the charts. I mean, it's amazing. Yeah, I think those are really the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Chad (35:09.515)
hahahaha

Zamauri (35:30.02)
Oh and then I love the kind of synth breakdown in Home At Last, you know what I'm talking about? Where it goes into the horn section and then it just has that really nice synth and it goes back into the groove and oh my God. And then of course I think Walter does that solo up there. He does the, yeah I mean and then when it goes into that solo that's even more just it extends the euphoria you know. Amazing.

Chad (35:34.603)
Yes, oh yeah.

Chad (35:44.531)
They were... Yeah, I think so. The guitar solo. Yeah, euphoria is the exact right term. So many of their bridge or middle eight parts are just some of my favorite pieces of the songs and they could be their own standalone piece of music if they were more fully developed. So I wonder if in certain cases they just mesh two songs together and said, okay, you know, this isn't a fully formed idea, but here's this one part that would fit

Zamauri (36:16.428)
Exactly.

Chad (36:25.449)
perfectly in the middle of this other track. I wonder if they ever sort of did that and married two things together. The middle eight on Green Earrings, I think is one of my favorite pieces of music ever. I don't know why it just makes me feel like I'm somewhere else and I can't even describe what that means necessarily or define where that somewhere else is. But it just lifts me out of my sort of consciousness. If that's not too corny to say and sort of takes me somewhere. And the lead up into the bridge part, where Bernard Purdie just hits the tom-tom over and over again and that triple hi-hat hit that he does, my God. Yes.

Zamauri (37:03.226)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, that was one of my favorite moments early on like when I first heard that I was like hold up hold up like I had to rewind it oh my God whoo! just that quick little fill and then it goes in straight into the solo. I mean, oh my God exactly

Chad (37:18.)
And it's Denny Dias, right? And it's the one time, and I asked him this when I was talking to him on Cimcie's stream, but it was the one time in Steely Dan, or maybe even God knows his whole guitar playing career that he bent a note. And he said he only did it because Donald asked him to.

Zamauri (37:33.488)
Oh my God.

Chad (37:38.138)
Unbelievable. Yeah, he's another one that like, you know, I don't necessarily think people sleep on his guitar skills, but he was just, he had such a broad range between playing the early rock stuff with the band and then going into like, you know, the solo to Your Gold Teeth II, is one of my favorite pieces of guitar playing ever. I mean, as it is for many people, I'm sure, but that was just otherworldly.

Zamauri (37:58.798)
Oh yeah, yeah.

Zamauri (38:06.544)
Yeah, um, and you were saying, uh, he's, you were saying he was kind of you do think he's kind of slept on or?

Chad (38:14.96)
I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, if you look at any list of like, you know, the top 100 guitar players or whatever that that ridiculous list at Rolling Stone, I think, or Guitar Player magazine or one of the magazines did last year, it was just like, people on there that shouldn't have even been in the top thousand, in my opinion, but he never makes any of those lists, right? Skunk Baxter gets a lot of love, but I think it's because he carried his his

Zamauri (38:28.688)
Yeah.

Chad (38:39.456)
career through somebody being on so many other records and you know the whole Doobie Brothers part of his career. So I feel like you know he was a little more mainstream maybe and a little more well known but I feel like Denny just doesn't get as much love as he should. So the band that he was in and the one that

Zamauri (38:54.16)
Yeah, and I was gonna say, you know, that's definitely because Denny, as far as I know, he was only with Steely Dan. Do you know if he was with any other groups after that?

Chad (39:09.014)
Walter and Donald sort of systematically dismantled what's called Demian or Demian. And it was him and I think two or three other guys from the Long Island. And I'm pretty sure I found out about this from Expanding Dan. Jake Malooley does that great newsletter.

Zamauri (39:29.422)
Mm-hmm.

Chad (39:29.633)
I subscribe, I strongly suggest if you're a Dan Fann, subscribe and at this point there's so much back material to look through and read through and discover that it's great and he's always coming out with new things but he put out a newsletter issue and he did an interview I think with the other two guys that were in Demian and one of them actually had a couple of demos that had Denny on guitar and Jake published them in the newsletter, so you could listen to it and songs were great. I mean, you know, I really sort of thought there was it was they had a lot of potential and it's funny because it's almost like I could have been right. Like if those guys had been able to finagle staying in the band, they would have been part of Steely Dan. Right. And then I think after Steely Dan, I know Denny did some other session work. I'm not really sure what exactly, but he's been playing with like jazz ensembles and stuff, I think, ever since. And I think he still plays.

Zamauri (39:59.216)
Yeah.

Zamauri (40:25.648)
Yeah, um... But yeah, I think that's why he is kind of slept on, you know, because he was with the Dan, but he didn't really, at least in turn, in a mainstream sense, carry on anywhere else. Even though with the Dan, I mean, there's several dozens of songs where he just fucking shreds, you know. Oh my God. I mean, albeit in the bebop style, but still, you know, nevertheless, it's amazing. I mean...

Chad (40:39.392)
Yeah.

Chad (40:47.532)
Oh yeah.

Zamauri (40:57.264)
Yeah, I don't know. He was slept on. It's crazy because he has some of the most, at least some of my favorite guitar solos and just techniques that I've ever heard. And yeah, I just think it's a matter of just him being not as well known as other people. Given that he was, you know, just with the Dan. But yeah, I mean, Denny, definitely, I would say probably my favorite guitarist that was with the Dan. Yeah, without a doubt. Over Larry Carlton, yes. Over Steve Kahn, yes. Even though they have some of my favorite solos, of course, you know, Third World Man, I mean, just beautiful.

Chad (41:26.993)
Yeah, me too. Hahaha.

Chad (41:38.564)
Oh yeah, that's my favorite Larry Carlton solo. To me it's even better than Kid Charlemagne.

Zamauri (41:42.788)
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean that whole song is just so beautifully and just hauntingly atmospheric and then just that guitar whole guitar solo at the end, you know where they just keep going through the same, He's a third world man, you know, it's just just spooky

Chad (42:04.524)
Totally. What was I going to say? Yeah. So, who are some other musicians that were with Steely Dan and nobody really knows them for other things? I'm trying to think. Jim Hodder, you know, another person he was, you know.

Zamauri (42:22.448)
Yeah, very, very slept on. I mean, over Denny just incredibly slept on. It's sad, honestly.

Chad (42:30.704)
Yeah, great, great drummer. You don't realize it until you go back and listen to his playing in the context of the songs, right? And, you know, he's never too flashy, but when he needs to bring it, he brings it.

Zamauri (42:45.776)
I mean that whole groove he keeps on, King of the World, is just great. Just, you know, but yeah, it's just really sad too, you know, given that, well, I don't know what he did after the Dan, honestly. Do you know at all?

Chad (42:53.776)
Oh yeah, oh yeah, he's...

Chad (43:03.726)
I don't know about after the Dan, but he's another one who was in another band that had a little bit of, you know, I think local success maybe before, and it was called the Bead Game. And I think they were out of Boston. They're, I think it's, I'm not sure if it's their album or just a couple of songs that they had is on Spotify and you, you know, online and you can, you can search for it and find it. And they're actually pretty good. And he was a hell of a singer too, by the way, you know, like.

Zamauri (43:27.406)
Oh yeah. Yeah, I love his voice. It's great. It's great.

Chad (43:32.942)
Yeah. I was just talking to, I had my niece on the pod a couple of weeks ago. And, you know, she grew up liking Steely Dan, you know, partially because of me, but also from her mom who turned me on to Steely Dan and my older sister. And they, her favorite Steely Dan song is Midnite Cruiser, you know, and she's just, she's a huge Jim Hodder stan. So.

Zamauri (43:57.872)
Yeah, Jim Hodder, great. You know, great voice. It's weird, like, all the singers that have been, or the people who have sung on Steely Dan songs all sound great. I you know, I don't think I have it to even speak about Donald. But, you know, Walter, great voice, and very unique as well. Of course, David Palmer, I think he was probably the most...singer type of singer or most vocalist type of singer that's you know, done lead if that makes sense and then Jim Hodder I mean really unique voice as well, but just really nice too, you know had sort of kind of like a at least to me kind of a country sort of twang to it to it just a tad bit, you know. But yeah, like I was saying it's just it's really sucks like, especially with Jim, you know being that he was only with the Dan and of course Bead Game before that and then just faded into obscurity sadly and then I don't know if he I think he drowned in a pool. I don't know if that was like the 80s or 90s but it's just you know, it's so unfortunate you know, he never got his I mean, of course he was big with the Dan, but you know, he never got his at least I think deserved, you know praise.

Chad (45:10.798)
Yeah, he was pretty young too.

Chad (45:21.454)
Yeah, no, I totally agree. And he was way too, I mean, you know, nobody's ever not young when they die, right? But it was pretty sad. And then who else? I'm just trying to think. It's funny how many people I discovered, how many players that I discovered that I had no idea. And if you start to put the pieces together and you start to follow some of the careers,

Zamauri (45:30.128)
Yeah.

Chad (45:48.11)
Iit kind of blows your mind people like Elliott Randall and you know, all of the 18,000 different guitar players that they came in and played on Dan records, right? But also just some of the other session people. I mean, you know, obviously Chuck Rainey, Bernard Purdie hands down the best rhythm section ever on the earth. But, you know, even some of the horn players, Paul Griffin, who was an amazing keyboardist. I had to bite my tongue because somebody on Twitter was praising Sign In Stranger and saying how great Fagen's piano playing was. And I was like, it's not Fagen. But I was like, all right, don't don't be that guy, Chad. Don't be that guy. So I didn't. Yeah, exactly. Actually, I didn't go there. I just left it alone. I was just happy that somebody that I didn't recognize as a Steely Dan nerd was was praising that song because it's another

Zamauri (46:21.904)
Uh... Uh... Well, well, actually...

Chad (46:37.952)
you know, sort of more obscure one. But like, if you sort of just go through and follow the careers of some of these players, like the sheer amount of hit records and just amazing albums that they've played on, like Steve Gadd, you know, 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover by Paul Simon, I'm trying to think, I mean, there's probably, you know, 50 other records I could name, I just can't think of any of them right now. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's just sort of funny how they got to the point in their careers, Steely Dan, where Walter and Donald and I guess Gary Katz were just like, hey, wouldn't it be great if we can get so and so who we love. Right. And that's how they came across Wayne Shorter. You know, they loved Wayne and they just literally cold called him and said, you know, can you come do a sax solo on the song that we're recording? And he was like, who are you? Right.

Zamauri (47:31.6)
Yeah, the Dan have opened me up to a lot of things. I mean, for one, just really paying attention to lyrics more and appreciating lyrics, not only, because of course, they're like, at least in my opinion, some of the greatest lyricists ever. But yeah, lyrics, session musicians, there's been since I've listened to the Dan and have made myself I've kind of you know just picked out the different session musicians on their albums like there's been tons of like live you know performances on YouTube and just songs where I'm like anyway I recognize him or you know I recognize that name like it'll be Steve Gadd playing with someone or it'll be You know Larry Carlton on some Joni Mitchell record. I'm like, oh wow, you know? It's amazing. Like Joe Sample, for example, you know, when I saw he was on Black Cow, that kind of got me into the Crusaders and you know, they're fabulous music. But yeah, the Dan have opened me up to a lot of different things within music. Yeah, it's just crazy how many like hit records and stuff these guys were on, you know. Oh my God.

Chad (48:31.566)
Yeah.

Chad (48:51.759)
Yeah, and it's opened up a whole world that I didn't even know about, you know, and that's what I love about not just Steely Dan, but even, you know, other artists that use studio musicians or, you know, just looking at the history of a band from, you know, the 60s, 70s, 80s, and sometimes they would split up and go off in different directions. Then you kind of follow their careers and you're like, oh, I didn't realize so-and-so was in that band, you know, back in the 60s or whatever. So I just love following all the trails and, you know, learning along the way.

Zamauri (49:21.456)
Yeah, it's funny. It really is just funny like how much the Dan has opened me up. I mean, like I said, lyrics and session musicians, but also just like in general being into live concert recordings and all that. Like I've watched tons of Dan concert videos and then not only I'm just interested in, you know, other groups, you know, live performances and whatnot, you know, because before the Dan, you know, I didn't pay attention to lyrics like that. You know, I just passively, yeah, I would say sort of passively listen to music. I didn't really know who the hell was playing on the record. I just knew the artist's name. And I didn't really look at live concert videos or anything. But since the Dan, I've just delved fully into all the musical aspects of different artists and whatnot. Yeah.

Chad (50:17.039)
I've never been a big live music fan because I prefer recorded stuff. If I hear a song and I start to love a song or an album, I want to hear it that way. So for some reason I've just been not totally averse, I mean, I see my share of concerts, but I don't kill myself to go see an artist if they're playing near me. You know, certain ones I'd want to go see just to support them and, you know, to hear whatever they're doing. Um, but yeah, since the whole sort of, you know, my own personal Danaissance a few years ago, um, I've been watching a lot of the videos that have been put up on the different YouTube channels, you know, yours as well as, uh, Dan Belcher and you know, that guy just has every, yeah, I know, I don't know how he does it, how he finds the time because all the sort of restoring, restoration and all the upsampling he does for all these old videos to make them look and sound as amazing as they do. It's gotta take just hours upon hours upon hours. So Dan, if you're...

Zamauri (51:19.856)
He recently put up a he was recently put up a re remaster of a of the Dan's Detroit, you know Pine Knob 2000 concert. Oh my God, phenomenal. I mean if when you listen to the one that he just put up and listen to the original, oh my God, it's just whoo, just blows it out of the water, you know It's crazy

Chad (51:30.544)
I just listened to that.

Chad (51:43.312)
Yeah. I just listened to that one and I forget which other one. I want to say it was the Manassas, Virginia show. I forgot what year it was, but I forget which one was which. Yes, yes, I think it was '96, you're right. And I forget if it was that one, because I watched like three or four in a row over a few days. So forgive me for not knowing which concert it was from. But to see Walter singing Haitian Divorce, which I hadn't come across before in any of the other live shows, I was like, whoa, this is awesome.

Zamauri (51:54.202)
'96, that's the classic, classic.

Zamauri (52:15.248)
Yeah, I don't know some of those things where Walter sings, you know different Dan songs that I find them kind of you know wholesome but kind of funny, you know, cuz you know admittedly he doesn't sound that great on all of the stuff he sings, you know, I mean, that's just a fact Like also like him doing Monkey in Your Soul that was I don't know how everyone else feels about it, but I, it was interesting. That's what I'll say.

Chad (52:54.063)
I hear that. But another highlight of the live shows for me that I wasn't aware was a thing until like probably you know six months ago was when they let the Danettes take over and sing certain songs, specifically Dirty Work. I don't want to listen to Palmer sing Dirty Work anymore I just want to hear the Danettes do it now. It would be.

Zamauri (53:09.168)
I want to hear Donald sing it, that would be interesting. That would be... I already know it would sound good too. I mean, you know, he has a nice voice, but that would be really interesting. And I also wish he sang Razor Boy, because whenever they perform it, the Danettes sing that too. The Danettes are great of course, but you know, I want to hear Donald sing.

Chad (53:26.383)
Right, that's the other one, yeah.

Chad (53:31.095)
Sure.

Zamauri (53:33.04)
Also Maxine too, that's another one that the Danettes sing that I would love to hear Donald do live.

Chad (53:40.207)
Yeah, I don't know why he doesn't do that one. I mean, you know, there's a lot of stacked harmonies in that song. Maybe he's just letting them, you know, handle it.

Zamauri (53:46.084)
Yeah Maxine, that's of course, that's reasonable, but like Dirty Work and Razor Boy, like I don't know, I guess it's just a, you know, artistic choice or whatever.

Chad (53:59.407)
Yeah. Who's your favorite version of the different eras of the live band if you had to pick one?

Chad (54:13.839)
No pressure.

Zamauri (54:15.568)
I would say 2000 that you know that whole Ricky Lawson, Tom Barney,of course Michael Leonhart, Jim Pugh, and then Bob Sheppard and Cornelius on sax, rest in peace. And then of course they had Jon Herington by then. And yeah, I mean, that's just my favorite honestly. And I think it's just like due to some of the songs I've seen them perform when they were in that incarnation compared to the stuff I've seen them perform now.

Chad (54:33.551)
Yes, yes.

Zamauri (54:53.206)
I feel like I've seen a lot more rarities with that group compared to now where I've just really seen hits for the most part.

Chad (55:00.975)
Yeah, he's playing it safe I think recently with the setlist and stuff for sure.

Zamauri (55:05.552)
Yeah sadly unfortunately oh my God like you would think you would think that you would think that Donald would want to play you know more obscure or you know less heard stuff compared to you know Rikki Don't Lose That Number and Peg and Kid Charlemagne, Jesus Christ but it was weird though like

Chad (55:08.975)
I know, I mean this is his chance to, I mean we had that one rarities night.

Chad (55:26.672)
I know you would think. I really...

Zamauri (55:31.888)
On their previous tour, Earth After Hours, their first show I think, they played Janie Runaway in the middle of the setlist. Randomly. Like that's...that was pretty funny because it's like they were just playing hits. Everything else on that setlist was normal. And in the middle of it, it's just Janie Runaway. Like what? I would have loved to be at that show, you know.

Chad (55:42.477)
Oh wow.

Chad (55:57.135)
It is a random song to just slap in the middle of some of the other ones.

Zamauri (56:01.136)
And they also did The Goodbye Look during that tour, I forgot what show, but he sprinkled a little, like really rare stuff, but just a little bit of it here and there.

Chad (56:14.318)
I would have loved to have seen that. And I really am sad that I didn't get to see them at the Beacon when they were doing the album, you know, album night shows and the rarities night, which, you know, thankfully again, we have video and of most of that, thanks to, I guess that's a Dan Belcher thing too, right? It's one of his videos. The one and only time we've heard Second Arrangement live. And I think it's the only performance of The Bear too, right?

Zamauri (56:38.672)
They performed The Bear a few times. Rarities Night. I know they did it at the Greek Theater once, I think 2009 or sometime, but yeah.

Chad (56:41.166)
Have they?

Chad (56:45.676)
Hmm.

Chad (56:51.982)
So favorite unreleased Gaucho track if you had to pick one.

Zamauri (56:55.92)
Uh...mmm. Maybe off the top of my head I would say The Bear is it fine if I pull up the list real quick but yeah I would kind of just say The Bear

Chad (57:10.798)
Yeah, of course, absolutely.

Zamauri (57:18.448)
Because I mean that groove on its own is just so snappy and punchy I mean you wouldn't expect no less honestly but it's

Chad (57:29.806)
And I'm assuming you just obviously heard the full band version of Can't Write Home About You that they just released.

Zamauri (57:37.232)
Yeah, that's you know speaking of you know where I get my sources someone emailed that to me like a month ago and then I guess Steve Kahn eventually put it on his website or whatever. But yeah, I mean that is great, you know.

Chad (57:55.502)
I had only ever heard it in a stripped down form, I guess on one of the Lost Gaucho tapes or whatever that's been circulating forever. There was like just the piano and vocal sort of rough demo of it. But hearing the full band version just blew me away. I was like, wow.

Zamauri (57:55.726)
Okay.

Zamauri (58:11.856)
Yeah, it really adds a whole lot to it. There's some Dan songs like some of those Brill Building early demos where it's like, oh, they sound nice and you know, really intimate, you know, when they're really stripped down, but like stuff like Can't Write Home About You when you hear the full group and just, you know, what they can add to the song. I mean, it just, you know, takes it to a whole nother level. But yeah, I think I would probably say The Bear is my favorite Lost Gaucho track.

Chad (58:40.941)
Yeah, that's fair.

Zamauri (58:41.68)
That or maybe Second Arrangement but probably The Bear.

Chad (58:48.045)
I love Second Arrangement. Something in that song I just connect with. The Bear too. The Bear has that groove that's just sort of unimpeachable. Second Arrangement for some reason, even before it officially came out last year, obviously we all had the original bootlegs of it and it just always for some reason just resonated with me, that track.

Zamauri (59:11.216)
I didn't like it that much before the more higher quality versions came out but I would say over the last year and a half I came around to it and I do really like it now. But I still do think The Bear is probably my favorite Lost Gaucho track. Or I don't know if it would be my favorite Lost Gaucho track but I really do love the lyrics on Were You Blind That Day. Really, really raw and Donald's voice is really raw as well, which is great, you know. Yeah, but even then, you know, Third World Man, it's beautifully, you know, just quick and simple. There's only a few short lines, but it gets to the point, and the music is just so atmospheric enough to where it just, it sells the whole theme that they're trying to put out there. Really effective, you know. What do you think about the extremely slow version that's on Alive in America of Third World Man?

Chad (01:00:36.317)
I feel like it adds a little more to that atmospheric piece that you're talking about. It takes it in a different direction a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I like when they reinterpret songs, you know? And the other thing, what's the song that I was just thinking about? There's a song, oh, was it Sign In Stranger, where he changes the lyrics in the bridge?

Zamauri (01:01:09.616)
I think he... Do they change it or do they just add? I know they have some different lyrics.

Chad (01:01:12.076)
No, he changes it, I think, in a couple of the live shows. And I was, again, didn't know this was a thing. And then I was just watching it one day, and I was like, huh, what'd he say? You know?

Zamauri (01:01:24.932)
Yeah, something about a lucky star, I think, or I don't know, something, but it is interesting.

Chad (01:01:28.845)
Yeah. And do you like the slowed down version of Third World Man?

Zamauri (01:01:34.648)
Uh, yeah, I like it. I used to think it was just pretty silly to slow it down that much, because it's extremely slowed down. But I do like it, you know. I do think it kinda slightly adds to that, uh, menacing vibe and stuff. Um, yeah. It's nice.

Chad (01:01:42.261)
Right.

Chad (01:01:53.197)
Yeah. All right, well, listen, is there anything else you wanted to cover or talk about?

Zamauri (01:02:00.496)
Uh-huh.

Chad (01:02:02.72)
We covered a lot of Dan ground, but is there anything else on your mind?

Zamauri (01:02:06.37)
Oh yeah, I just thought about this. It's not just an exclusively Dan podcast. I think I'm just so used to talking about the Dan so much that I forgot that other music exists.

Chad (01:02:10.35)
It's not but you know what it leans that way it definitely leans that way because I've I've cultivated a lot of my guest hosts from my Memes of the Dan Instagram page. So obviously most of the people that are sort of raising their hands and saying, hey, you know, I'd like to come on or the people that I specifically asked to come on like like yourself have been like, you know, we connected over Steely Dan. So it just makes sense. But I have other episodes. I have things, you know, somehow Steely Dan always works its way into the conversation, but you know, it's not exclusive.

Zamauri (01:02:48.72)
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think we all feel this way, of course, but, you know, it's weird because like, you know, of course it is a subjective, you know, feeling. It's my opinion, but like, it's unreal how just brilliant, you know, Donald and Walter are. Man, I mean, I don't know. I mean, that's all I have to say is just, just every time I think about it. It just blows my mind just how you know complex but accessible and just really poetic their lyrics are and of course the complex and harmonic music, I don't know it's just otherworldly honestly, man.

Chad (01:03:35.823)
There's sort of a mystique around them too, which I think adds to it, at least for me, that they're like these inscrutable guys. And if you read all the interviews, they were just like eating up reporters for sport, because 70s and even, I guess the 70s was really just...so much fluff going on in the world of music and the world of rock that I think they just didn't have time, you know, and I just read a really funny story where when they went to London, I guess they played sick and holed up in a hotel suite, the two of them, and you could only get into the suite, it was like one of those hotels where you had to have like specific key or key card to get to that area of the hotel and they didn't give anybody the key. So it was just the two of them and they wouldn't talk to anybody for like a week when they were in London doing press. They would go out, do their, you know, press stop, or whatever come back to the room and just like sequester themselves so they didn't have to like I guess interact or whatever you know I'm probably getting the story halfway wrong but it was just hilarious to me that they would do that you know

Zamauri (01:04:39.376)
Two big goofballs. It's funny, it's honestly even funnier just how much they crack each other up in just the interviews you watch where like one of them will say some quirky line and the other will kind of fall over just chuckling or whatever. It's really wholesome, you know. I think they certainly find each other funnier than we could ever find them, you know.

Chad (01:05:00.527)
Yeah, they definitely had a special bond.

Chad (01:05:06.831)
For sure.

Zamauri (01:05:10.704)
But yeah, what are some of your favorite artists?

Chad (01:05:14.99)
So besides Steely Dan, wow. I really like Lloyd Cole and the Commotions and Lloyd Cole's solo work. I love Buffalo Tom. I love Smashing Pumpkins. I love Led Zeppelin. Saint Etienne, who's a British band that you wouldn't think I'd be into, but I've loved them since they came out. And I guess the late 80s, early 90s was their first record. You know, I mean, a lot of the classics, like, you know, the Joni Mitchell and, you know, sort of the singer songwriters, Billy Joel. But I listen to a lot of stuff, you know, and it's hard for me to kind of pigeonhole favorites really. But those are some of the ones that I keep coming back to. Oh, Prefab Sprout, another brilliant, brilliant band. I don't know if you're familiar with them at all. You would probably like them.

Zamauri (01:06:09.328)
Yeah, I was gonna say I only know like probably like three of the artists you named.

Chad (01:06:14.222)
I'm gonna have to get you into Prefab Sprout and maybe Lloyd Cole. It's not in the same playing field as Steely Dan, but very well crafted complex music with very literate lyrics, right? Like it's, I mean, I hate to use this word, but sophisticated pop is sort of what they've, I guess, been retconned into being called, which I hate that term, but I said it. But I really think, you know, and I find that people that like Steely Dan like Prefab Sprout at least and Lloyd Cole sort of on the side too. So I'll send you some, I'll make you a playlist or something. You should definitely check them both out. I have Phil actually, I'm recording with Phil. You know, I've been on his pod twice, but he's gonna come on this on Sunday. And we're gonna talk about albums other than Steely Dan for a change. And he sent me his list of like three or four just classic albums that he wants to talk about. And I sent him back Prefab Sprout, my favorite album, I think their best album is called Steve McQueen and Lloyd Cole and the Commotions' first album, which is called Rattlesnakes. And those are the two that I want to talk about. So I sent them to him and he listened to them and he was like, oh, I never even knew that these existed. These are great. So trying to get people into that.

Zamauri (01:07:35.088)
Cool, that's cool. Are you into any like, I guess, you know, just pulling from the Dan? Are you into any like jazz or stuff like that?

Chad (01:07:44.846)
Oh yeah, for sure. You know, since I played saxophone as a kid, early on I got into Coltrane. That led me to Miles Davis and Cannonball Adderley and, you know, I mean, I was a big horn kid, like I was really into horn players. I love Miles. Miles is one of my favorite artists, I think. You know, I'm not a complete nut where I know every track and everything in his discography, but I know him when I hear him and, you know, he had some of his weird eras, right? But my favorite sort of era of Miles is, you know, probably the '55 to '60-ish, like the quintet years. You know, just brilliant, brilliant stuff that came out of that. You can't see, I actually just rearranged my room, but I have a poster of Miles on my wall to my left, so.

Zamauri (01:08:36.272)
Yeah, okay. And so did you... Oh, no, you said you got into the jazz stuff through saxophone, really? Or...

Chad (01:08:44.974)
Yeah. So when I was in eighth grade, I played in jazz band, stage band and marching band. Marching band, we obviously did marching band stuff, but like stage band and jazz band, we did, um, my, my music teachers at the time were cool. And this was 1984. I'm really dating myself, but, um, they would bring in stuff that was on the radio, you know, a, because we, the kids wanted to play that stuff because, you know, we didn't just want to do this, you know, old guy music. Right. So we did the theme from Ghostbusters with with a band arrangement, we did Material Girl by Madonna, few others that I can't think of, but you know, sort of peppered into there were some classic jazz tunes. And some of those escape me too. I remember one song that I love to play that we did in jazz band called Asleep in Class. I don't think it's like a standard or a classic, but just this great song where the, the sax section and the trumpets would, would trade off lines and stuff. And it was a fun song to play. So it got me into that mindset, you know, even as like a 12 or 13 year old kid. And that kind of followed me through high school and even into young adulthood where I started to get into a lot of jazz stuff.

Zamauri (01:09:59.6)
Well yeah, I would probably say just hearing you speak I'm probably at the same level of jazz knowledge as you. I like a lot of different things but I'm not like a... I wouldn't say I'm an aficionado. Like I don't know, oh yeah that album came out on that label in that year and oh yeah I love when this whole group was together. I'm not as that knowledgeable. But yeah, I like a lot of...
jazz and I would say I guess being into the Dan has introduced me to a bit more than I knew before. But yeah, like you, I listen to everything for the most part, you know. It really just depends on the song, honestly. I don't really have a specific genre or genres that I'm not into or into, you know. Yeah, and I think that...

Chad (01:10:54.128)
Same.

Zamauri (01:10:57.36)
That's why I like Frank Zappa so much, because that's pretty... He defies music, honestly. But yeah, speaking of some of my favorite artists, Zappa has climbed up there over the last two years or so. Of course, The Dan. And then I normally say Stevie Wonder is right up there in the top

Chad (01:11:01.456)
He defies genre classification.

Chad (01:11:25.136)
Oh yeah.

Zamauri (01:11:26.32)
top favorite ever. You know, just like Steely Dan, I just think Stevie Wonder is just like, you know, otherworldly in terms of just his composition and his lyrics are great as well. I would say the Dan is probably some of my favorite lyrics ever but Stevie Wonder has some really great stuff as well. Probably like second to the Dan for me. And then Frank Zappa, I would say more so the music. His lyrics are fine but...

Chad (01:12:01.391)
Yeah, his lyrics get kooky, but you know, that's by design, I think.

Zamauri (01:12:05.712)
Yeah, I don't really care for the lyrics much, but the composition is just next level. All three of them, they just have some sort of brilliance that I can't even describe or fully explain why I like it so much. But it's just great.

Chad (01:12:24.113)
Yeah, it's just a level of genius. And Zappa, by the way, another one who I don't know, you know, I don't know that much about his recording stuff and his album recording process, but I know he had a lot of influential people in and out of his different incarnations of his band. I don't know if they were like session people or just, you know, members of the band for a short time or whatever. But if you look back on like, you know, Steve Vai, Mike Keneally, who's another amazing guitar player. These guys all cut their teeth with, you know, as young kids really like playing with Zappa. I'm trying to think who else. Oh yeah, right, right. George Duke.

Zamauri (01:12:57.776)
George Duke too, that's another artist I really like.

Chad (01:13:02.703)
Terry Bozzio, the drummer, you know, probably, I mean, if you're a drummer or if you know drums, you're not sleeping on Terry Bozzio, but most people don't even know who the hell he is, right? Or they just knew him from the the Missing Persons band in the 80s, which I love. People hate on that band, but you know, whatever. But he's another one that just...sort of like this breeding ground for just brilliance with the people that he played with because I think he, like Steely Dan, he really demanded excellence from people in playing their parts. He would call them on the carpet if they were playing a note wrong or were a little bit off key or whatever the case may be. I think he was like a harsh taskmaster.

Zamauri (01:13:43.696)
Yeah. I don't know, I might have a thing for really strong dictators, musical dictators or something.

Chad (01:13:52.418)
Hahaha.

Zamauri (01:13:54.96)
I don't know if you've heard the story about how they used to call Donald "mother" in the studio. Did you hear about that at all? Well, I first heard about it. I heard about it from other things later, but there was this interview on this podcast episode with Gary Katz on Spotify. I think it's Bob LaFette's Podcast or whatever, but you know Gary Katz he goes to a bunch of different things and he speaks about how they used to call Donald "mother" in the studio or whatever

Chad (01:14:01.745)
No.

Zamauri (01:14:24.866)
whatever. And I just thought that was hilarious. I think that really goes to show just how much he ran things, at least to an extent. But yeah, I don't know. I guess I just love really tightly put together music in general. Because there's a lot of things like...well, now that you know the music now it is what it is but for the most part I'm not into a lot of I would say the mainstream stuff now because there's a lot of you know brilliant people you know out now that I'm really into but a lot of the mainstream stuff I just personally don't like you know I guess that's just I guess I'm just weird you know because you would think someone my age would be into the you know contemporary scene but I'm pretty out of the loop honestly.

Chad (01:15:19.281)
I mean, I'm pretty out of the loop too, just because I'm an old guy, but my daughter who's 18 has been keeping me in the loop a little bit. And you know, she and I will trade off some music. I can't get her into the Dan. So I'm just trying to subversively slip some of that music into her world. But you know, so far it hasn't worked, but we'll see. But other than, you know, her non-attraction to Steely Dan, she has really great taste in music. And you know, I can't take credit for all of it. I'll take credit for some because you know I played her stuff when she was little and you know she liked some of the same artists but...she's been slowly the last three or four years like really she'll come to me and say, hey, check this song out, I think you're gonna like it or we'll be in the car, you know, driving someplace and you know, she'll put her Spotify on and hit a playlist and I'll hear something that I just like and I'm like, who's this and she's like, Oh, that's Beabadoobee. Right? Or that's Mitski or who's the other one that that I...the song. The song is called Doomsday...Lizzy McAlpine. That is a fantastic song. I listened to that song on purpose more than I probably would care to admit, but it's brilliant, right? So I mean, like I'm getting to like some of the stuff that my kids into, which is fun because, you know, this is something we can connect on. But yeah, to your point, like for the most part, anything the last 10 years, like there's maybe, you know, a three or four artists that I liked that have come out, but for the most part, it's not really my thing.

Zamauri (01:16:56.24)
And I think it's just like I have to find artists that are unique and stuff that I enjoy that are out now. I have to dig deeper, you know, past the most of the mainstream, you know, stuff. Because there's artists out now like this brilliant saxophonist and composer named Kamasi Washington. He has some really great records out. And similarly to that, there's this duo, I think it's Domi and JD Beck or JD Beck? Yeah, Domi and JD Beck. It's this female keyboardist and then this male drummer and they just make some really progressive sort of jazz kind of drum and bass fusion type of stuff. I don't know how to describe it. But their debut album, they released that I think two years ago and they had Snoop Dogg up there, Herbie Hancock.

Chad (01:17:42.446)
Oh, wow.

Zamauri (01:17:52.112)
This artist named Mac DeMarco. And it's really great. It's, I don't know, it's some really good stuff. But yeah, oh, and I would say also Kendrick Lamar, I recently, I'd say like the last year and a half or so, gotten to him, but mainly his album called To Pimp a Butterfly. That's a really, a really, a really, you know, varied album, eclectic, with some brilliant compositions up there, but.

Chad (01:18:13.198)
Yes.

Zamauri (01:18:26.032)
Yeah, for the most part I have to really dig and find the artists that are doing different things compared to the mainstream, reverb heaven, pop stuff.

Chad (01:18:38.956)
Totally. They're out there. They're out there. And I've been discovering them, you know, not just from my daughter, but from Spotify, really, and just from sort of combing through things on the Internet, you know, one of the things I don't know if you saw it, I did it on my Instagram, but I've also done it on my Twitter account where I'll just ask people for recommendations if I'm just bored and don't feel like, you know, listening to the same shit that I've been listening to.

Zamauri (01:18:40.72)
Yeah, I don't know.

Chad (01:19:03.884)
I'll just say, hey, I have to go to the city tomorrow. I have an hour and a half in the car. Throw me a song that you love right now. And so many people are cool enough to reply and be like, hey, check this song out or, you know, listen to this song. I mean, unfortunately on Instagram, it was all my Steely Dan nerds. So they're like, play Gaucho. And I'm like, oh, I play Gaucho like every damn day. No. Right. But.

Zamauri (01:19:19.12)
Yeah, I saw some of the replies to your story question. I think it was today or yesterday or but um yeah, it was a lot of Steely Dan stuff.

Chad (01:19:32.396)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, and Phil puts Limp Bizkit and I'm like, just no, just go away, no. But yeah, like the people on Twitter, like it's, you know, my Twitter account's not 100% Steely Dan focused, although that's mainly what I post about and interact a lot with. So I got a lot of interest and recommendations from there. And then, you know, I was just telling somebody else this, but what I like about Spotify is I listen to

Zamauri (01:19:38.544)
Hahaha.

Chad (01:19:59.435)
a playlist, maybe has 20, 30 songs on it. And you know, at the end, it'll just start to shuffle up stuff that it thinks is related that you might like. And sometimes it sucks. But sometimes it'll be like something that I've never heard before. And it pops up a song and I'm like, Oh, what's this? You know, so I'll listen to it a little bit more, get into my head and see if I like it. And then I'll just go ahead and add it to one of my playlists, right? So I've been doing a lot of that just capturing songs from different sources and just throwing them. I have like a random catch-all kind of playlist that I use. Oh, and by the way, speaking of playlists, the one you sent me was like, you know, just the most well-organized, biggest playlist I think I've ever seen of somebody's favorites.

Zamauri (01:20:34.704)
And by the way, the...

Zamauri (01:20:41.04)
That's literally just my liked songs playlist on Spotify. Whenever I like a song and click the heart button, it just goes on there. I literally don't have any other playlists. Well, I think I have like a few others that have like two or three songs on it because I just didn't finish it. But, you know, really if I like a song, I just click like on it. And, you know, whenever I feel like it, I'll just shuffle the like songs playlist and just listen to everything, you know. But yeah, I know it's a big ass playlist.

Chad (01:21:10.463)
Mine wasn't near I have obviously have the liked song playlist too and I can't think of how many songs are on there. It's probably close to 5,000 if not a little over but the one that I sent you back and you know by the way thanks for making me because Spotify does the obvious end of the year playlist, like, you know, your top songs 2018, 2019, 2020, whatever. I just really started to use Spotify in a big way and paid, started paying for Premium back in 2017. So my Spotify sort of, you know, algorithm only goes back that far. So what I did last year was I was like, okay, I've been on here for just over five years. I took all of the your top songs playlists from each year and I ran them through this thing online called Smarter Playlists. And Smarter Playlists is this website where you can hook it up to your Spotify account. And it's almost like a drag and drop, um, programmatic kind of builder, oops, hit the microphone. Um, which is sort of super nerdy, but that's me. Um, so what I did was I dragged all of my top songs playlists into this thing, had it alternate songs from start to finish on each playlist. Cause that way they'd be sort of in, um, order, you know, of, of, um, how much I played them or liked them during the year for each year. And then I ran it through, they have a dedupe function, right? So that way, obviously I wouldn't have the same songs 10 times. So I did that, came out with like little under 500 songs. And then after I traded playlists with you, I was like, shit, I keep forgetting to put 2023 in there and it's, you know, already March. So I went in a couple of days ago and peppered in 2023 and then reran the whole thing and spit it back out again. It didn't change a whole lot. But there are a few new entries in there. So I've been doing that and that's what I'll do. If I'm bored, I'll throw that on and hit shuffle because at least I know it's the last five or six years worth of stuff that I really like.

Zamauri (01:23:04.176)
Yeah, it's great how many songs and albums that I've come to love through Spotify. Spotify has been a huge catalyst in my evolution through music, music listening or whatever, and taste in general. Just a bunch of underground, so to speak, or just obscure groups and albums or songs and what. Yeah, it's great. Some of my favorite albums have been recommended by Spotify. For sure that Kendrick Lamar album, To Pimp A Butterfly, that got recommended up there a while ago. And man, just in my opinion, a masterpiece. But yeah, it's great. I love Spotify. Thank you, Spotify.

Chad (01:23:40.941)
Yeah, me too.

Chad (01:23:55.384)
Yes, thank you Spotify. Great. Well, listen, Zamauri, it has been fantastic speaking with you. Thanks so much for coming on and you know, maybe there'll be a part two. We'll have to pick up where we left off and, and, you know, talk again.

Zamauri (01:24:11.12)
Yeah, I would love to do a part two, you know. This actually went pretty quick to me. Yeah.

Chad (01:24:18.206)
Me too, I just looked down and realized it's almost an hour and a half, which is fine. Definitely we covered a lot of great ground. So thanks again for coming on and any parting words?

Zamauri (01:24:32.496)
Um, you know, I love music, everyone, you know, music is so close to my heart and RIP, Jim Beard, you were a great one. So sad and sudden, really unfortunate. But yeah.

Chad (01:24:38.284)
Me too.

Chad (01:24:43.82)
I know oh man yeah yeah all right well talk to you soon absolutely my pleasure.

Zamauri (01:24:54.448)
Alright, thanks for having me on.